Why the Left is so dangerous

POSTED BY: AURaptor
UPDATED: Tuesday, April 8, 2025 14:10
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FINN MAC CUMHAL

Monday, July 16, 2007 1:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
One of the problem I see in a pull out is that Iraq will become the theatre for a proxy war between Iran and Saudi Arabia and possibly a shooting war between Turkey and Kurdistan. These kind of calculations aren't even mentioned in the US press right now and certainly dont form part of the political debate.

I'm not sure that's a good enough reason NOT to pull out, just worries me that it's not being considered.

There’s no doubt that this is a big problem and will continue to be, as it has been and continues to be in Korea.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

SIGNYM

Monday, July 16, 2007 2:59 PM

Quote:
One of the problem I see in a pull out is that Iraq will become the theatre for a proxy war between Iran and Saudi Arabia and possibly a shooting war between Turkey and Kurdistan. These kind of calculations aren't even mentioned in the US press right now and certainly dont form part of the political debate.

Which is why you make Saudi Arabia the guardian angel of central Iraq, Iran the guardian angel of southern Iraq, and anyone who cares to stick their foot into this pile of crap- maybe China and/or Russia since they have oil interests in the area- guardian angels of Kurdistan. That is, if Bush believed in diplomacy. Which he doesn't because he keeps trying to hammer out a military solution for a political problem.

Finn: What the Prime Minister said was "diplomacy-speak" for YANKEES GO HOME. The article appeared very briefly on CNN but was removed. YOU can still find it at the original AP source.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070714/D8QCI4501.html

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Always look upstream.

SERGEANTX

Monday, July 16, 2007 3:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Bullshit Finn.

The PNAC/Neocon/Clean Break agenda is completely documented and admitted in painstaking detail, and like anything else that gets in the way of your idiotic fantasies and faerytales, you like to just play "let's pretend" and say it doesn't exist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century

I see no point in discussing things with folks who deny really obvious realities because they're inconvenient...

That's pretty much the size of it. I don't even bother posting the links anymore because they won't read them. Karl Rove says it isn't real and that's enough for them. The standing orders seem to be to play the PNAC off as a wild-eyed conspiracy theory and avoid any discussion on the topic - despite the fact that it was the single consistent rationale for invading IRAQ since before 911. Ostrichism prevails.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

FLETCH2

Monday, July 16, 2007 3:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
One of the problem I see in a pull out is that Iraq will become the theatre for a proxy war between Iran and Saudi Arabia and possibly a shooting war between Turkey and Kurdistan. These kind of calculations aren't even mentioned in the US press right now and certainly dont form part of the political debate.
Which is why you make Saudi Arabia the guardian angel of central Iraq, Iran the guardian angel of southern Iraq, and anyone who cares to stick their foot into this pile of crap- maybe China and/or Russia since they have oil interests in the area- guardian angels of Kurdistan.....

Here's the problem with that. Southern Iraq would be an Iranian satellite that has a border with Iran and with Saudi. In effect it will become something like Lebanon, a buffer state/military proxy of Iran through which Tehran can launch attacks on Saudi. Now that might not actually happen, but the Saudi's may fear it. We can expect a lot of Sunni based violence in the south if that looks to be happening.

Central Iraq would be hard for the Saudi's to defend especially if the Shia decide on ethnic clensing. It's easier for Saudi to attack the "aggressors" (read Iran/southern Iraq than to actually defend Sunni interests directly on the ground.

It's not a good situation.

SIGNYM

Monday, July 16, 2007 3:26 PM

Quote:
Ah, the delusional fantasy of the evil American Empire. Any consequence is worth it as long as you can defeat the evil American Empire. Signym wanted an example, here’s one. When you find your argument compromised by the complexities of reality, you re-invent it as righteous opposition to some fantastic Imperialistic America seeking world domination.

Finn, you have this concept that anywhere we are and anything we do is right and justified. But personally, I see NO reason for the USA to have over 800 military installations around the world. And ... speaking of Patriots... I can't imagine the Founding Fathers would be any too happy about it either. Do you?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

FLETCH2

Monday, July 16, 2007 3:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
Ah, the delusional fantasy of the evil American Empire. Any consequence is worth it as long as you can defeat the evil American Empire. Signym wanted an example, here’s one. When you find your argument compromised by the complexities of reality, you re-invent it as righteous opposition to some fantastic Imperialistic America seeking world domination.
Finn, you have this concept that anywhere we are and anything we do is right and justified. But personally, I see NO reason for the USA to have over 800 military installations around the world. And ... speaking of Patriots... I can't imagine the Founding Fathers would be any too happy about it either. Do you?

You mean the guy's whose first foreign war was sending troops to fight Muslims and secure US commercial interests?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Barbary_War

SIGNYM

Monday, July 16, 2007 3:57 PM

Quote:
Here's the problem with that. Southern Iraq would be an Iranian satellite that has a border with Iran and with Saudi. In effect it will become something like Lebanon, a buffer state/military proxy of Iran through which Tehran can launch attacks on Saudi. Now that might not actually happen, but the Saudi's may fear it. We can expect a lot of Sunni based violence in the south if that looks to be happening.

Central Iraq would be hard for the Saudi's to defend especially if the Shia decide on ethnic clensing. It's easier for Saudi to attack the "aggressors" (read Iran/southern Iraq than to actually defend Sunni interests directly on the ground.

There would be ethnic cleansing on both sides. The problem with central iraq right now is that the USA has been consistently turning a blind eye towards the Shia paramilitary while attacking the Sunni insurgents. Consequently, the Shias have been aggressively displacing the Sunnis from Baghdad. But if the Sunnis were to be given a free hand in the internal security of "their" territory they would be a powerful force in the region. The only issue with this idea (aside from the internal bloodshed which is going to come when we officially put the Shiites in power anyway) is that the Saudis and the Iraq Sunnis don't get much out of this economically. The Saudi oilfields are played out, central Iraq has none, and the current and future oil production goes to Iran/southern Iraq and Kurdistan to the north. The Saudis and Sunni Iraqis need to get some economy out of it.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

SIGNYM

Monday, July 16, 2007 4:07 PM

Quote:
You mean the guy's whose first foreign war was sending troops to fight Muslims and secure US commercial interests?

We fought a war after being repeatedly attacked on the open seas and having war declared on us. More importantly. we did not establish a military installation there nor did we run their government afterwards. That's the difference between and empire and a war.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

FLETCH2

Monday, July 16, 2007 4:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
There would be ethnic cleansing on both sides. The problem with central iraq right now is that the USA has been consistently turning a blind eye towards the Shia paramilitary while attacking the Sunni insurgents. Consequently, the Shias have been aggressively displacing the Sunnis from Baghdad. But if the Sunnis were to be given a free hand in the internal security of "their" territory they would be a powerful force in the region. The only issue with this idea (aside from the internal bloodshed which is going to come when we officially put the Shiites in power anyway) is that the Saudis and the Iraq Sunnis don't get much out of this economically. The Saudi oilfields are played out, central Iraq has none, and the current and future oil production goes to Iran/southern Iraq and Kurdistan to the north. The Saudis and Sunni Iraqis need to get some economy out of it.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

Not entirely sure that's an accurate assessment. The current Bagdad crackdown is actually against the Shite militias especially the Mehdi army. Ironically the US Military is the best defence the Sunni populous has right now, even though it's Sunni militants that are attacking the US.

CHRISISALL

Monday, July 16, 2007 4:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
Saudia Arabia is looking into developing domestic nuclear power, which seems a bit fishy when you realise they sit on most of the carbon based fuel in the world.

Not at all fishy, Fletch! They're doing something we're not very good at here in the states- looking toward the future. The oil has peaked, and will be dwindling shortly, like in OUR lifetimes. They simply don't want to be oil-dependent, like their dumb customers. Oh, and bonus: the makings for nukes.

It's really that simple Chrisisall

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