Jerry Falwell dead at 73
POSTED BY: Geezer
UPDATED: Sunday, May 20, 2007 16:55
VIEWED: 18266
PAGE 15 of 17
Quote:Nope, that’s your imagination. Specifically crafted to protect your views from other people’s opinions. After all, as long as you can imagine the people you disagree with as mass murders, it’s easier to dismiss them in favor of your own views, isn’t it?
Originally posted by SignyM:
What's the difference between killing 3,000 civilians for political or military gain, or killing 3,000,000? Beside the number, I mean? One you find abhorent the other excusable.
Quote:What a load of self-righteous crap. In your eyes the innocent and the guilty are the same. That’s pretty much how Zarqawi and bin Laden saw it to, by the way. They didn’t draw a distinction between innocent and guilty.
Originally posted by SignyM:
This is where your definitions gets you in trouble. Because you don't believe in killing people... except that people are more people-like when they're innocent (and the more innocent the better, like the unborn) and besides it's not really killing if we had a good enough reason even if they were innocent.
But if you were to stand before the Almighty (assuming you believe in such) and He were to ask you for your rationale what would you say? "We didn't mean to"? "We had good reasons"? "We were defending you"? "Oops"? The innocent peeps- women, children, and your very favorite person: the unborn- are just as dead. So what is that? Serial manslaughter? You didn't learn lessons from the first 1,000,000 times? You're still making excuses?
A woman who kills her rapist in defense is a murderer? Because the actions of the rapist cannot be used to draw any distinction between the rapists and any other guy walking the street.
A man who kills someone attempting to kill him or his family is a murderer? Because the actions of the killer cannot be taken into consideration.
If a boy runs out into traffic and gets hit by a truck. Is the truck driver a murderer?
That is twisted.
Oh, and I also remember you saying that you won't draw a distinction between a murderer and new born child. At the time, I thought I was just misunderstanding you, but it's clear now that I was not.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Finn, have you ever read the Onion article of the interview with God? In which he expressed how pissed He was that the ONE law (as in the current translations) that he thought he made unamiguous Thou shall not kill is the one we fuck up over and over in the name of righteousness? Or, if you don't like the current translation, what about the teachings of the NT and the example of Jesus? If anyone is guilty of a load of self-righteous crap it's you.
Quote:No. First of all in their eyes we are ALL guilty. They simply draw their lines in ways you don't accept. Like you and like al Zarqawi- I draw distinction between innocent and guilty. But it's not for the purpose of taking life. If anyone is LIKE al Zarqawi it's you. Because- unlike al Zarqawi and unlike YOU- I in no way justify killing people for any reason except self defense or the defense of others. And there are true accidents that simply could not have been prevented. You justify killing people for the same reason al Zarqawi did: in the name of morality. Or democracy. Or capitalism. Or for whatever cause allows you to kill more people that you save. And you have defended the killing of thousands of innocent people just for that very reason. Who made you God that you feel justified in taking a life? Multiple lives? Hundreds of thousands of lives? Or condoning killing?
In your eyes the innocent and the guilty are the same. That’s pretty much how Zarqawi and bin Laden saw it to, by the way. They didn’t draw a distinction between innocent and guilty.
Quote:No. Why, oh why are you so thick-headed? That is self defense.
A woman who kills her rapist in defense is a murderer? ... A man who kills someone attempting to kill him or his family is a murderer?
Quote:If the truck driver was driving drunk and and has already "accidentally" killed 1000 boys with his truck while driving drunk, it damn well is. That's the situation that I find you defending.
If a boy runs out into traffic and gets hit by a truck. Is the truck driver a murderer?
Quote:As far as the right to a life- no, I DON'T draw a distinction. But would I give them the same access to society at-large? Of course not.
Oh, and I also remember you saying that you won't draw a distinction between a murderer and new born child. At the time, I thought I was just misunderstanding you, but it's clear now that I was not.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
So you would never have supported America’s action in WWII, because to do so would be condoning mass murder. But by not supporting America’s action in WWII, you are essentially giving the pass to Nazi’s Germany’s extermination, and to do so would be to condone mass murder.
This fundamentalist view that you have is not only illogical and naïve, but insulting and disturbing, because it allows you to condemn anyone you don’t agree with as evil. I’ve spoken with fundamentalist before and it’s usually pointless to discuss anything with them. You won’t consider any opinion or point I have, instead you’ll simply interject the opinions and points you want me to have. Anything I saw will be used to justify this idea that you have that I am a mass murderer. This is what I mean by hating people because of their opinions. In your eyes, I’m evil, not because of my actions or the opinions that I hold, but because of the opinions you attribute to me. You’ve created this image of the mass murdering Finn, not me. And that is hate. And you really can't discuss anything with people like that.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:No, I consider that legitimate and successful "defense of others."
So you would never have supported America’s action in WWII, because to do so would be condoning mass murder.
Finn- Can I ask you to consider something? Is it possible to imagine the most heinous criminal possible without thinking of the death penalty? Is it possible to divide the concept of "guilt" from the concept of death? Or are the two so inextricably linked that you can't imagine one without the other? Have you created a sliding scale of humanity based on "innocence"?
And what about the ones that you KNOW are innocent who're killed in war? The ones who got in the way of bigger concerns? Have you created another sliding scale of humanity based on convenience?
BTW- how do you consider my views "fundamentalist"? I think that they're not only consistent with each other but with reality. And you keep tagging yourself as a "mass murderer". I haven't said you were. What I'm saying is that your lack of insight causes inconsistencies within your own belief system.
------------------
Always look upstream.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:You already know the answers to these questions. The only thing I care about is killing millions of people. My only regret in life is that there are only six billion people to kill.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Finn- Can I ask you to consider something? Is it possible to imagine the most heinous criminal possible without thinking of the death penalty? Is it possible to divide the concept of "guilt" from the concept of death? Or are the two so inextricably linked that you can't imagine one without the other? Have you created a sliding scale of humanity based on "innocence"?
And what about the ones that you KNOW are innocent who're killed in war? The ones who got in the way of bigger concerns? Have you created another sliding scale of humanity based on convenience?
Quote:Oh it doesn’t get much more fundamentalist then you. You’d have made Falwell proud. So intolerant and inflexible in your “fundamentals” that you’ll condemn someone as evil for not following the way of righteous.
Originally posted by SignyM:
BTW- how do you consider my views "fundamentalist"? I think that they're not only consistent with each other but with reality. And you keep tagging yourself as a "mass murderer". I haven't said you were. What I'm saying is that your lack of insight causes inconsistencies within your own belief system.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Finn, why do you so bitterly keep putting words in my mouth? The only thing I'm accusing you of is excessive righteousness. And believe me, I'm not about to use THAT as an excuse to have you killed, or to call upon God or others to do it for me!
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:Bitterly putting words in your mouth.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Finn, why do you so bitterly keep putting words in my mouth? The only thing I'm accusing you of is excessive righteousness. And believe me, I'm not about to use THAT as an excuse to have you killed, or to call upon God or others to do it for me!
“What's the difference between killing 3,000 civilians for political or military gain, or killing 3,000,000? Beside the number, I mean? One you find abhorent the other excusable.”
Evidently, I have no problem with the death of millions of people, unqualifiedly. I'm sure I never said that so, clearly those words come from someone else. You’re whole point was to insult me with vindictive personal attacks because you don’t like the fact that I’m not willing to join in with hating Falwell on his deathbed.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:No, evidently you have no problems qualifying death as justified or excusable
Evidently, I have no problem with the death of millions of people, unqualifiedly
Quote:No, my point was that you have a very inconsistent view of what's "right" and what's "wrong", and which way it wobbles depends on whether or not you agree with a person's underlying motives. And yes, to the best of my recollection you HAVE defended invasions and other "interventions" which have clearly killed many innocent people which were not at all defensive. Time permits, I will go look them up and either find out I was wrong - in which case I owe you a huge apology for busting your chops over a mistaken perception- or I find out that I'm right.
You’re whole point was to insult me with vindictive personal attacks because you don’t like the fact that I’m not willing to join in with hating Falwell on his deathbed.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
This whole thing reads like a smear campaign against Finn. Finn doesn't like the way people reacted to Falwell's death, so Sig tries to undermine his opinion by pointing to unrelated topics where Finn's viewpoint is unpopular.
So what's your strategy, Sig? Harp on about Finn's attitude towards American interventionism until he's bored and leaves or he's seemingly so discredited in the eyes of other posters that they'll ignore his objections and continue expressing their dislike of Falwell? That way they could do it in peace until they feel they have sufficiently expressed their moral superiority, without being made to feel guilty about it.
Questions are a burden to others. Answers are prison for oneself.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
On backing despots
Quote:
I'm sending money to support my investment. The US does this a lot. We send money to many different places to support our investments. How these people choose to deal with their problem is up to them.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME