Mary Sue - the thread.

POSTED BY: AgentRouka
UPDATED: Monday, April 2, 2007 19:42
VIEWED: 24098
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PHOENIXROSE

Thursday, February 22, 2007 9:29 AM

There are a few OCs that I appreciate, I can admit that. Mostly, though, not so much.
I find it hard enough to do the original crew real justice, which is why I've only got three fanfics written. They're not very long, but I'm proud of them. If I were to write a longer story and have an OC, it would probably be a villain rather than a new member of the crew. They've gotta have someone giving them a hard time, don't they?
But really I prefer to explore the people and how they relate to each other. The most recent thing I wrote was a 'fill in the blank' in Zoe's relationship with Wash. That kind of thing is what really interests me.
I will never, ever, ever write a character of a pretty little ass-kicker who sleeps with Simon. Even if I had the skill to pull it off (which I don't think I do) the characteristics themselves would scream 'Mary Sue' and it wouldn't matter how well it was written.

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.

SPACEANJL

Thursday, February 22, 2007 10:06 AM

Stormwolfdawn, I can't quite get my head around your posts. You don't like OC's and want a 'verse consistent with Joss' writing. And then you want Rayne and slash?

No.

Rayne Is Not Canon. But I know the futility of arguing with folks on this.

If all you want is turnabout pairings within the same small group, then all you have is 'Friends'-in-Space, and Joss' vision deserves to be served better than that.

An OC should serve a purpose within a plot-line, and if you are in a post-BDM 'Verse, then that purpose would be one originally served by Wash, Book or even Mr Universe. The voice of faith, reason or the McGuffin to drive the plot. They can be well-rounded individuals, or a quickly sketched cameo. But anything that just consists of folks as brief cannon-fodder for our BDH's, while they bunk-hop their way across the Black, doesn't appeal to me. Not everyone they ever meet wants to bed/kill them.

STORMWOLFDAWN

Thursday, February 22, 2007 8:01 PM

Your mistaking my posts. One of the best stories in the BSR is Hotpoints series. His/Her OCs do drive the plot and they are enjoyable, but they aren't there to take relieve his/her fantasy to boff one of the crew which is what MS usually do.

Consistent with Joss's writings means when you create a OC you don't take away from the main chars. I happen to love AUs, and have written many of them in both this fandom and in my earlier fandom The Sentinel. What I don't like is Mary Sues and people who can't get it through their thick skulls that the OCs they are writing are Mary Sues and are just a waste of space.

I like villains OCs and some OCs like in Hotpoints who flow the plot along but not some female who happens to be from the Academy/ or a kick everyone's ass female who is married to Mal, or Jayne.

As for Rayne...hey all I say was if you had given Joss a few more seasons it would have happened....look at Buffy/Spike! LOL

-----------------------------
"I was aiming for his head." -Jayne

SPACEANJL

Friday, February 23, 2007 8:54 AM

Okay. Point taken. Haven't read Hotpoint.

Maybe I'm just a little sensitive on the subject, having written an OC crew member myself.

Rayne worries me on so many levels. I just can't see those two characters forming that kind of relationship, I really can't. It isn't an age thing, or even a culture thing, particularly, just an absolute personality thing. But, as I said, you can't argue with someone else's view of it.

As for the Spike/Buffy thing...given the choice between Mr-Billowy-Coat-of-Pain and his poofy hair, or some quality snark with those cheekbones...hehehe. (Look, I like bad boys. It's a character flaw.)

...er, bum. Just realised that I should run away from this thread very fast. Female OC crew member is Mrs Cobb. In my defence, she IS the cook. And physically, I doubt she could even take Kaylee.

6IXSTRINGJACK

Friday, February 23, 2007 9:25 AM

I had to laugh when I first started reading this thread. I had no idea what Mary Sue was and I thought it was a woman here at FFF that wrote fan-fics. Here I was thinking that you all were some of the meanest critics I've ever seen and then I find out it's a just burn about shoddily written characters that are just too perfect. (loose translation at best) I was thinking, "Gee, what will Mary Sue think when she reads this thread?"

I had a few questions though from one of the posts that I saw. I'm not arguing the point, by any means. I'm just curious what your opinion is...

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
I agree with SpaceAngl - there definitely are hints of MS-ness in any original character, because the people we create contain little pieces of us.

Does this pertain simply to any character that is written in a fan-fic of a particular show, comic book, [insert media here].... or are you even refering any original work as well?

If this is true of all stories, and not limited only to fan-fics, are there MS tendancies in Joss's characters as well, or is Joss somehow above MS-ness? I just ask this, because using the logic above I would think that Joss's characters all contain little pieces of him, therefore taking on the MS-ness in themselves as well.

Are there any examples of any good characters in literature that have ever been written in which the author just couldn't relate to them at all and the character did not share a single trait with it's author?

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

SPACEANJL

Friday, February 23, 2007 9:40 AM

Going to be a bit wanky on this one...

I think a good character has to be understood by the writer, even if that character is very different from the writer. The key elements are imagination and empathy.

Just writing yourself as you are now and slapping that into the middle of an alien scenario will jar horribly. And that is one Mary-Sue element.

Oh, good characters very different from author? Richard Adams, 'Watership Down'.

Good characters that are drawn from author, but avoid MS-ness? Arthur Dent.

Horrendous MS-ness that people have paid money to read? Catherine Cookson.

Horrendous MS-ness in the BSR...no, that way lies trolldom.

I used to work as a bookseller, and was continually amazed by some of the sheer rubbish that gets published. (Of course, now I am trying to write professionally myself, I bless it.)

An Original Character does not have to be a Mary-Sue. I certainly hope mine isn't. But it is a pitfall, unless the writer is prepared to stretch themselves to try and attain a different perspective, and maybe come to a decision or an outcome that is different to what they might do in that situation.

6IXSTRINGJACK

Friday, February 23, 2007 10:50 AM

Ha!... I could just imagine me in any alien scenario. I'd be the the annoying guy that talks about conspiracy theories all day. In Firefly, I think every conversation I was involved in would pertain to Reavers, PAX or the meddling of the Alliance.... or any combination of the three. Or telling people "I told you so".

I never read any Richard Adams, but I did see the old cartoon Watership Down earlier because of a freind at work and I thought it was great.

Unfortunately, I've never read Arthur Dent or Catherine Cookson (not unfortunatly about her I guess), so I really can't relate.

Forgive my ignorance, but what is the BSR? I'm assuming that was in answer to my question of any characters of Joss and MS-isms.

Has anybody read Hunter Thompson? Particularly Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas. Although the situations were outrageous, I think that was pretty much Hunter in the story playing himself. I think that was an example of somebody who could write himself into a fictional setting and it worked very well, but he has an excellent writing talent and is no doubt the exception to the rule.

As far as bestsellers, I've read a lot of Michael Chriton before. I think most of his movies are crap, but the books are great. Am I a victim of bad taste or does anybody feel that his work is exceptional as well?

Good luck with your writing SpaceAnJL. Thanks for responding.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

SPACEANJL

Friday, February 23, 2007 12:11 PM

Arthur Dent was the everyman 'hero' of Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

BSR is the Blue Sun Room.

As for the great gonzo himself...I just wrote a chapter set in New Vegas, has a loon flailing at bats and blabbering about the lizards in the casinos...

If you like Michael Crichton, try Lincoln Preston. (Wrote 'the Relic', which is better than the film version of it.)

"You can turn your back on a person, but never turn your back on a drug. Especially when it's waving a razor-sharp hunting knife in your eye."

EMPIREX

Sunday, February 25, 2007 2:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Stormwolfdawn:
Its too bad you don't like Rayne but then I am against Jaylee myself and I know lots of people like it. Right now the best series I've read in a long time is a Rayne series by Dyce being posted on Rayne_Shippers and in fanfiction.net. Its absolutly wonderful and its slowly bringing River and Jayne together not tossing them into bed the first paragraph.

The mark of an excellent author is one that can make you like something (a pairing or character) that you don't *want* to like. For instance, in the X-Files community, I'm a die-hard Mulder/Scully 'shipper. I wouldn't go *near* a Mulder/Other or Scully/Other fic if my life had depended on it. However, people kept rec'ing this one fic - I think it was called "Seven Stages of Human Madness" - a largely "pre-X-Files" casefile fic where Mulder is married to a woman named Deborah and has a child with her. Their child is abducted and murdered and the marriage does not survive: infidelity on his part, a nervous break-down on hers. Flash forward years later, the murderer is arrested, Deborah has become an assistant district attorney, and Mulder works with Scully on the X-Files. Even though it ended in Mulder/Scully, my heart broke over the breakup of Mulder and Deborah's marriage. The point is, she was no Mary-Sue. She was an extremely sympathetic and compelling character. The whole thing just made me cry my eyes out. I had to read it with a box of tissues!

I'm not a Rayne fan, but I want to rec you one really great post-BDM fic, Stormwolfdawn. It's primarily a Mal/Inara, but there's some truly lovely Rayne towards the end. Beautifully written River and Jayne - what each might have become if both characters had been given the chance to grow more: Kaynara's "Strange Bedfellows/Bedlam/Bed and Wine" series. It's a slow build to Rayne, which is what made it so plausible. One of the best fics I've ever read. Very Exciting. But it's a tear-jerker, I warn you.

MAL4PREZ

Tuesday, March 27, 2007 7:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I was thinking, "Gee, what will Mary Sue think when she reads this thread?"

Ha! Too funny!! I want to register as MarySue so I can post a stingy reply LOL!

Quote:

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
I agree with SpaceAngl - there definitely are hints of MS-ness in any original character, because the people we create contain little pieces of us.

Does this pertain simply to any character that is written in a fan-fic of a particular show, comic book, [insert media here].... or are you even refering any original work as well?

Sorry I never responded - I just saw this post today!

First, the reason I said what you quoted was because I sensed a kind of witch hunt paranoia getting started here. Some writers were getting this tone like "OMG my OC is a bit like me it's an MS I must kill it now!!" and other folks were suggesting that all OCs are bad because they are reflections of the writer.

My point is - of course all characters are, in at least some degree, reflections of the writer. Any character created in any media is made out of what's in the creator's head!

The writer has to feel for the character, be passionate about him/her, in order to inspire passion in the reader. (And I mean passion as like or dislike.) So, the best characters we write will have our traits or the opposite of our traits because that's what we know, and that's what we're inspired by.

The problem with a true MS is - the writer doesn't know when to let go...

Perhaps I was off in saying this is a hint of MS in every OC. I was trying to say that there is a hint of author surrogate - which, by some definitions, by the definition in that test, is the same thing as a Mary Sue.

I guess the two could be differentiated like this: MS's have the unfortunate habit of not fitting. In fanfic, they take over the canon characters, imposing the will and personality of the writer on an already created `verse, whether it makes sense or not. Often, the cannon characters and tone of the fictional world are greatly changed.

In orginal fic, an MS can do the same thing if the writer's primary focus is self-aggrandizement and fantasy fulfillment, rather than creating a believable and self-consistent world. A good writer can do both at the same time - which is why some characters who score so high on the MS test don't bother us. When we read them, we see them fitting into their world, and we don't see the hand of the writer.

Quote:
If this is true of all stories, and not limited only to fan-fics, are there MS tendancies in Joss's characters as well, or is Joss somehow above MS-ness? I just ask this, because using the logic above I would think that Joss's characters all contain little pieces of him, therefore taking on the MS-ness in themselves as well.

I sort of got to this above...

But of course Joss's characters have MS tendencies! Kaylee and River are definitely half way there, which is why so many fic writers have an easy time turning them into KayleeSue and RiverSue. But Joss is so creative in how he uses them, and he gives them such deep interaction with other characters and puts them in such a vivid world, that it works.

Which is why we should take the Mary Sue thing with a big bunch of salt, and think though any character ere we judge and dismiss...

Quote:
Are there any examples of any good characters in literature that have ever been written in which the author just couldn't relate to them at all and the character did not share a single trait with it's author?

I'm not sure about that, haven't studied much literature, just read it for fun.

It would certainly be an interesting challenge to try...

My feeling is that I couldn't make a character who I found fully despicable. To create an OC, I have to know everything about them, even the things they hide and, perhaps, don't even know about themselves. Anybody you know at this level, you begin to feel for. Because we're all human (at least, I try to make characters who are.)

I ha

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