Mary Sue - the thread.
POSTED BY: AgentRouka
UPDATED: Monday, April 2, 2007 19:42
VIEWED: 24098
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Mary Sue fic. We so rarely talk about it in depth. So let's!
Like it?
Hate it?
Wrote it?
Personally, I only go all hater on Mary Sue/Marty Stu stories when the character's actions are affecting a tad too much change. If they're suddenly solving long-standing issues like Mal & Inara's UST dance or Jayne's self-centred behaviour without much time to allow for naturalistic evolution? Then there's a problem ;)
Otherwise, I let the author run the show as they may. Minor characters have all kinds of effects on the BDHs, even when Joss is doing the scribe-work. Sheriff Bourne (Gregg Henry's character from "The Train Job") is a one-shot role that causes Mal to take a big step towards altering the crew's lives and interpersonal dynamics cuz of information and observations he provides.
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What is your most/least favoured Mary Sue scenario? The lost family member or the lost lover? Why?
Most favoured and least favoured MS scenarios, huh? I certainly don't mind the situations where the OC or OCs instigates a heist or job for the crew and interacts with them closely. Really, I will give any situation with an OC a fair shake till they start acting like Superman. Although, the lost lover or family member scenario is really mighty hackneyed in its usage. I think only Dawn Summers works in that scenario, cuz Joss fucked that cliche up badly (in the "gonna fuck you up so even yo momma won't recognized ya" vein of things) with his "make her a anthropomorphized portal key" plotline ;)
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We all know the general guidelines, but where is the delicate line between an original character and a Mary Sue/male MS for you? Do you "know it when you see it"? Does it depend on the general quality of the fic? Or the treatment of the other characters?
My guideline is "Are they (the MS/OC with MS tendencies) making an observation about something that a BDH would notice but not comment on for some reason? Or are they doing some impossibly prophetic stuff that changes a character's personality?" That and just looking at the quality of the author's work. If I can tell they are striving to have a storyline with an OC who's intelligent and capable but whose flaws are not readily visible, then I will give them some rope. They can either pull me along or hang themselves ;D
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Do you occasionally long for a Mary Sue warning along with the slash/smut/pairing/spoiler warnings that are the usual standard?
Nope...never really felt any longing for a Mary Sue/Marty Stu warning. Mainly because I could label someone's OC as one right off the bat, but eventually come to see that character as a lot more well-rounded than at first glance. Only way a warning should be used is if the author is intentionally using a blatant example of the Mary Sue character template. And hopefully only then as a parody or for humour;)
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Have you ever been the obnoxious person to point out Mary-Sue tendencies to the author of a fic, only to receive vehement denial? Or were you thanked for your kind advice which was actually used, leaving you feeling vaguely startled, flattered and guilty of manipulating someone’s creative expression?
Never pointed out an OC's MS tendencies, personally. Certainly made critical comments about the validity or believability of a character's actions or emotions...but never outright remarks about somebody's character being an MS. Not because I am cowardly...but because I see salvation where others don't. I think a lot of MS situations can be fixed with a touch of careful shepherding and creative writing.
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What about fic cliches in general? How much can you take? Which ones do you like, which ones do you hate, and which ones puzzle you in their popularity?
Other fic cliches, eh? I like most of them if done well. Joss himself proves that knowing how to write can mean using the oldest and most whipped dead horse-like plot constructs like they're brand new. I did wonder at a short run of stories at the BSR where Serenity gets totally annihilated
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After first reading the descriptions of Mary Sues I posted earlier, my mind went to the Orson Scott Card character of Bean, so I ran him through the test and he's a 64. One thing that test doesn't ask is "Is your character better/smarter than the hero of the story?" which Bean was in "Ender's Shadow". Ugh.
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I took the test.
34
Crap.
If anyone has read it, does it come over that badly? No-one has slapped me upside the head for it yet...
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Actually, I was thinking about this test last night. I still like it, but I'm not so ready to agree with it easily. And not just because one of my characters is borderline (on further reflection - I have to admit that my character totally is MS-ish! But I like him that way. 
)
The problem is - if you have a character who's young and attractive and at all capable, you're screwed on this test! That don't seem right. Audiences love young attractive characters. And you need them to be able to do something to advance the plot. Realistically, you do!
The best way to pass this test to have a 40+ year old ugly overweight dope who can't spell dog. A story full of those just wouldn't be fun.
Anyway, I'm with BEB. Joss has proven that a mary sue and a cliche storyline can be fabulous, if it's written well. It's that written well part that's so hard to do or define.
I still like the test for pointing out things not to do (and being pretty funny about it) but I'm not inclined to think the results are in stone.
And I love that character of Orson Scott Card's, gorramnit!
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Took the test and my OC got a 24.
I guess for my first try at fic writing that's not TOO horrible, and the folks who have commented on it have left positive feedback...so I hope in the continuation of the story I can continue to walk the line without going too far in the wrong direction!
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I've been thinking about it as well. Specifically, my criticism is that while it very correctly flags up the overall ridiculousness of slotting overpowered juveniles into main story roles, it does not address the main issue of a true Mary Sue fic in sufficient depth - that is as an idealised self-insert.
M4P; firstly Jase didn't seem Mary Sueish as I was reading Easy Tickets, and secondly I doubt that he would have been truly one anyway. I do know a lesbian teenage River-fan who could conceivably have written an emotionally scarred male self-insert for the sole purpose of River-snogging, but that never seems like your style to me.
The overpowered character - especially a youngster who has supreme control over his/her abilities to fight/use magic/fly spaceships/whatever annoys the heck out of me *unless* there are flagged reasons for it AND the rest of the storyverse is powered up to match. A story involving any sort of conflict (which is all of them, really) where one side has an overwhelming advantage and the other side never has a chance is boring anyway. However, I still don't think that this makes the leading character in such a story necessarily a Mary Sue, nor must a Mary Sue necessarily be in this sort of milieu. The key to the annoyance factor of a Mary Sue in my book is the blatant self-insertion character who can do anything or more than she/he should be able to do.
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Also, my favourite 'Mary Sue', tickles me even more that she realised that Harriet Vane couldn't marry Lord Peter at the end of Strong Poison without loosing her self respect, leading to more novels.
I couldn't help liking Harriet, even in her irritating moments. :D
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Hello Embers,
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...only good Mary Sue ever written IMO was Dorothy L. Sayer's creating the character Harriet Vane so she could marry her fictional hero: Lord Peter Whimsey.
Also, my favourite 'Mary Sue', tickles me even more that she realised that Harriet Vane couldn't marry Lord Peter at the end of Strong Poison without loosing her self respect, (leading to more novels).
I couldn't help liking Harriet, even in her irritating moments. :D
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Good points, Eloisa! It's the obvious self-insertion factor that really makes MS fics hard to read.
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Originally posted by mal4prez:
Good points, Eloisa! It's the obvious self-insertion factor that really makes MS fics hard to read.
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I'm the president. I don't need to listen.
And the way the canon characters tend to be written OOC to suit the self-insertion attention fantasy.
That's why your character was never a MS to me. He is a teenaged victim, but he's not the entire focus of the story and everyone's attention. Just as much deeply caring attention is paid to, for example, Ray, the man who hurt him. So much that Ray nearly eclipsed Jase to me, in importance. Layered writing and characters. That's no MS, truly.
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