The 'Jihad' Rant: Prove Me Wrong (warning: might be offenisve)

POSTED BY: HiroStone
UPDATED: Sunday, December 28, 2025 08:00
VIEWED: 22653
PAGE 6 of 11

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Well, look what we've accomplished in 200 years. It ain't pretty and there was alot of hardship, but in 200 years, America's come a long way from upstart 13 colonies.

-Hiro

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Unfortunately, it has gone in the wrong direction. The average lifespan of the worlds "great" civilizations is about two centuries. They all seem to follow the same progression. They begin in bondage, and go from bondage to spiritual faith, from faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, and from dependence back again into bondage.

In the past two centuries ... heck, in the last century and a half, America has gone from a three percent tax rate to a fifty percent tax rate.

When was in first grade (1953) the Federal budget was 76 Billion dollars. Bush is asking for a budget next year of 2,320 Billion dollars! More than thirty times what the government spent 52 years ago! Does that make Americans more free, or less free? And that's just one small aspect of government in this country.

You think the people of Iraq should have a Constitutional government? Give them ours ... we're not using it!

You boast that in America we have freedom of speech, and then you complain when somebody exercises that right. Well, that's freedom of speech too isn't it.

Somebody made a provocative tee shirt. That tee shirt provoked someone ... which was the whole object of making it in the first place. And the fact that the shirt had the desired effect provokes you. It all sounds rather silly to me.

loadandmakeready

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Originally posted by LoadAndMakeReady:


You boast that in America we have freedom of speech, and then you complain when somebody exercises that right. Well, that's freedom of speech too isn't it.

Somebody made a provocative tee shirt. That tee shirt provoked someone ... which was the whole object of making it in the first place. And the fact that the shirt had the desired effect provokes you. It all sounds rather silly to me.

loadandmakeready

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Let me say this yet A-GAIN!

This rant came from a deeply personal issue for me. 'Mike' CAN rant and object all he wants!!! He can scream and shout at me until he loses his voice! I support that! I'm not complaining about his opinion, I'm complaining about his issue over a gorram t-shirt! I'm not saying that 'Mike' can't complain. Or that I'm hypocritical for ranting that 'Mike' complains about the shirt; he can do that all he wants.

And I'm glad it provoked 'Mike' and myself. Here we are in this forum having a very interesting discussion about politics, war, faith, history, etc. Discussion and healthy debate are what garners ideas and change.

Plus, I never said Iraq should have a constitutional government. They should have whatever government they so desire as long as they choose and it serves the people and their interests.

Also, alot of things have changed since 1953. It's called progression of history and it's inevitable. We may not like change or that the government takes part of our paycheck each payday, but that is the way it is until someone stands up and says, "Hey! That's not right!" and complains about it.

It must be nice living in the past and dreading the future. If there's nothing to look forward to, what's the point?

From the movie With Honors:

Simon Wilder: You asked the question, sir, now let me answer it. The beauty of the Constitution is that it can always be changed. The beauty of the Constitution is that it makes no set law other than faith in the wisdom of ordinary people to govern themselves.

Profesor Pitkannan: Faith in the wisdom of the people is exactly what makes the Constitution incomplete and crude.

Simon Wilder: Crude? No, sir. Our "founding parents" were pompous, white, middle-aged farmers, but they were also great men. Because they knew one thing that all great men should know: that they didn't know everything. Sure, they'd make mistakes, but they made sure to leave a way to correct them. The president is not an "elected king," no matter how many bombs he can drop. Because the "crude" Constitution doesn't trust him. He's just a bum, okay Mr. Pitkannan? He's just a bum.

-Hiro

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Power vacuum - USSR pulled out of Afghanistan, we stepped in and set-up our guys. Problem is, our guys weren't much of an improvement over the Ruskies. But eh, c'est la vie.

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Not entirely acurate. The only role the USA really played was to arm the current Afghan leaders and resistance. The U.S.S.R. crossed international borders in a hostile manor. The first time they had done so in over 20 years. We were not equipped to deploy the armed forces to the field in any way shape or form, else we probably would have. The US had the intelligence and research to prove that communism was enough of a threat to do so. I, for one, am glad that we did. At the high point of the Soviet Empire, it was harder to get any meat for consumption, than it was under the czar in 1930.

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And let's not forget our friend Mr. Ashcroft, who in the Reagan era made a trip over to Iraq to let good ol' Hussein know that all our talk about WMD's being bad, after Hussein went on a gassing frenzy - didn't actually apply to him. Let's not forget who put Hussein where he was - the idea was he would keep in check the religious leaders in Iran. Well, who can say? That's a topic for alternate history buffs. Maybe if he hadn't been in Iraq, Iran would have spread out, gained more power, been less internally focused, whatever. Maybe not. My crystal ball is broken.

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So what's your point? Hindsight is 20/20 eh? Every leader makes bad judgement calls. Regan was no exception. That doesn't mean that Ashcroft is to blame. Have you seen the news lately? Have you seen what Clinton's mess in Haiti has become? If you have a personal beef with Ashcroft, say so. Otherwise, explain what you mean here.

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What I've always wanted to know is - what about the Saudi's? Osama's from there, not Iraq or Iran or Afghanistan. The majority of the dudes in the planes were from Saudi. So....I know, let's go after someplace else! I hear GWB 'graduated' with a degree in history. Huh - funny that.

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There are lots of people that want this question answered. However, just because Osama was born in Saudi Arabia doesn't mean that S.A. is responsable for Osama's actions after he leaves the country. Do we hold mexico liable for any of the offenses that their former residents commit? Osama had been living in Afghanistan for years and years. Afghanistan and iraq was where he and all of his merry men had been training, and in a 1996 interview with ABC, he stated that the reason he attacked the WTC in 1993 was because the U.S. was soft and would never be able to sustain a long drawn out war with Islam.

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Oh - and Ghoulman

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George Dubya is a fool of course... why you Americans voted for ... oh wait.



Yeah - we know.

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Like him or not, he's a military pilot. I know of no one on the planet that could be both a fool, and a military pilot. Nice try. If you don't like his philosophy or his ethics that's one thing. If you don't like his public speaking ability, that's another. Hitler wasn't a fool by any stretch of the imagination. Dilusional, yes; but certainly no fool. You should probably give your nemesis more credit than you do. Else how do you ever hope to win an election?

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At least those of us who pursue foreign press stories know about it. Funny thing is, I'm from Minnesota. The guy who would have won/kept the senate spot (Wellstone), died in a plane crash shortly before the election - a very important election, mind you. The republicans needed the win. A seasoned veteran steps in to take his place (Mondale), all the polls had him winning, yet Coleman's in Washington. Now how do you figure go se like that happens? And somehow, nobody ever connects those dots...And those weren't the only election results which stank, either.

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Smoke, mirrors, cloak and daggar eh? I suppose at least you feel smart on the internet. I'd love to see you and Michael Moore come up with some kind of proof that any of this hogwash is true. I suppose Aaliyah's death was politically motivated to? Or could it be

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Originally posted by liposuction:
At the high point of the Soviet Empire, it was harder to get any meat for consumption, than it was under the czar in 1930.

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Quite remarkable, seeing as the last tsar was finished off in 1917.

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This rant came from a deeply personal issue for me. 'Mike' CAN rant and object all he wants!!! He can scream and shout at me until he loses his voice! I support that! I'm not complaining about his opinion, I'm complaining about his issue over a gorram t-shirt!

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Perhaps I just don't understand how a tee shirt can possibly be a "deeply personal issue."

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Plus, I never said Iraq should have a constitutional government. They should have whatever government they so desire as long as they choose and it serves the people and their interests.

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If that were so, then they don't need the US to interfere do they? So then, why is the US government interfering?

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Also, alot of things have changed since 1953. It's called progression of history and it's inevitable.

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The point I was trying to make is that is not a progression, but a regression.

When someone can take the product of your effort away from you without your consent, they are claiming a property right in and ownership of your effort. I don't know what other people call it, but I call it slavery. And by that standard, slavery in this country is increasing.

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We may not like change or that the government takes part of our paycheck each payday, but that is the way it is until someone stands up and says, "Hey! That's not right!" and complains about it.

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People complain about it all the time. Unfortunately, too many people like the idea that they can vote away somebody else's paycheck. That is the reason democracies always destroy themselves.

I would like to point out to those who claim that democracy is "the greatest good for the greatest number," that every coin has two sides. And that the greatest good for the greatest number also means the greatest victimization of the lesser number.

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It must be nice living in the past and dreading the future. If there's nothing to look forward to, what's the point?

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I'm not living in the past Hiro, I was trying to explain that I have seen the past, and if the future is a continuation of what has happened in just the last fifty years then America HAS no future.

Vasily Kluchevsky, that giant of historical scholarship in the last century of Czarist Russia said it best; "The State swells up ... the people diminish."

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From the movie With Honors:

Simon Wilder: You asked the question, sir, now let me answer it. The beauty of the Constitution is that it can always be changed. The beauty of the Constitution is that it makes no set law other than faith in the wisdom of ordinary people to govern themselves.

Profesor Pitkannan: Faith in the wisdom of the people is exactly what makes the Constitution incomplete and crude.

Simon Wilder: Crude? No, sir. Our "founding parents" were pompous, white, middle-aged farmers, but they were also great men. Because they knew one thing that all great men should know: that they didn't know everything. Sure, they'd make mistakes, but they made sure to leave a way to correct them. The president is not an "elected king," no matter how many bombs he can drop. Because the "crude" Constitution doesn't trust him. He's just a bum, okay Mr. Pitkannan? He's just a bum.

-Hiro

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The purpose of the constitution was -- and IS to limit the power of the government. Granted, provision was made to change it, unfortunately, there was no provision made to deal with what happens when the government ignores the Constitution. And that is the problem with the government today. Every elected official in the country is required to swear an oath to uphold the Constitution, and violation of that oath -- by writing, voting for, or enforcing an unconstitutional law -- is perjury. But who is going to enforce that oath? The government?

Too many people want to put all the guns and decision making power into the hands of a "strong" government ... and then say to that government, "limit yourself." Th

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Well, seeing as how I don't know you (liposuction), and making things personal would be - well, a bit on the funny side since I don't know you, I'll just hit the salient bits and leave it at that.

My comments on the change between USSR and Taliban rule in Afghanistan were simplistic. I don't deny that. Point of fact - we helped/encouraged the Taliban. End of that story. As far as there ever being a USSR threat - riiiiiight. Popular opinion at the time was that they would be able to take and hold Afghanistan eventually, simply because they were the USSR. What people seemed to forget is how hard it is to win a guerilla war - see the USA's own experiences with Vietnam, for one. And I always assume - and this could be a mistake on my part - people have the ability to check my data.

Yeah - hindsite is 20/20. But here's a funny thing - history. Extrapolation. Common sense. Now if someone makes a mistake, why can't they just own up to that? How hard is it to say - you know, I was wrong. Let's fix this - what do we do now? Or I guess they - the administration - could just make a unilateral decision, bypass constitutional procedure, and send our kids to war. I guess that works, too.

As far as attacking Saudi Arabia goes, no, it's not something I think sounds like a good idea. But then, attacking Afghanistan and Iraq didn't sound like good ideas to me, either. I was simply following the logic the administration has used, and I apologize if anyone was confused by that. I thought what I was doing was fairly obvious. My mistake.

GWB is a moron. His actions, his declarations, his speaking, his attitudes - they all make him a moron. Do I underestimate him because of that? Nah - we all know stupid people are dangerous. Military pilot, huh? How many hours has he flown? How much time did he actually spend doing that? Ooooookaaaay. Now, I happen to have a driver's license - does that make me any good at it? Is that a testament to my intelligence, or lack-thereof? Given - flying a military plane, or any kind of plane - takes a certain amount of intelligence. You need to be able to read and follow directions.

Smoke and mirrors - maybe. Who's to say? Here's something I've always found interesting - if you state that something's suspicious, and someone else says you're paranoid, people automatically assume the suspicions are unfounded. It's sort of like the god card - say you're doing something in the name of god, and if anyone challenges you, call them a heathen and burn them at the stake. Do I really think Wellstone's plane crash was some sort-of conspiracy? No. I think it was an extremely unfortunate accident. But it set the stage for some interesting voting.

As far as me thinking I'm smart on the internet - nope. I try to be somewhat cogent and informational, but as far as my opinions go...If you think they're stupid, then that's what they are to you. But remember - the road goes both ways.

****
At least I can spell.

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*Sighs*

The two topics that will start arguements the quickest are politics and religion.

I can see why someone, even a relatively new convert to Islam, might take offense at such a shirt. Granted, the extremists responsible for the attacks of 9/11 are in the very small minority of Muslims, many people are distrustful of people from the middle east and Muslims in particular. Distrust leads to fear leads to hatred.

How does it make you feel to see people in foreign countries burning the American flag, or carrying signs or banners w/ anti-American slogans? Do you ask yourself "What have we ever done to them? Why do they hate us?" I know I have, and I am sure they ask themselves the same thing when they see t-shirts like this one.

I do not claim to be an expert on the Qoran, though I do have a close friend who is Muslim. We have talked several times about Islam, but only when I have questions. He has never tried to "convert" me or pushed his religion on me. He is by far the most tolerant and peaceful person I know. I do know that many people confuse the term "jihad", and that there seem to be several interpretations of the Qoran. Of course Muslims do not corner the market on misinterpreting their religious works.

I do not subscribe to the idea that the US went to Iraq this time around for oil. I do not profess to know all the reasons our gov't found it necessary to go to the middle east this time, though they say it is to eliminate a threat, the good that came out of it, the liberation of the Iraqi people and the toppling of a tyrant were definitely good outcomes.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Originally posted by LoadAndMakeReady:

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This rant came from a deeply personal issue for me. 'Mike' CAN rant and object all he wants!!! He can scream and shout at me until he loses his voice! I support that! I'm not complaining about his opinion, I'm complaining about his issue over a gorram t-shirt!

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Perhaps I just don't understand how a tee shirt can possibly be a "deeply personal issue."

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Plus, I never said Iraq should have a constitutional government. They should have whatever government they so desire as long as they choose and it serves the people and their interests.

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If that were so, then they don't need the US to interfere do they? So then, why is the US government interfering?

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Also, alot of things have changed since 1953. It's called progression of history and it's inevitable.

---

The point I was trying to make is that is not a progression, but a regression.

When someone can take the product of your effort away from you without your consent, they are claiming a property right in and ownership of your effort. I don't know what other people call it, but I call it slavery. And by that standard, slavery in this country is increasing.

Quote:

---

We may not like change or that the government takes part of our paycheck each payday, but that is the way it is until someone stands up and says, "Hey! That's not right!" and complains about it.

---

People complain about it all the time. Unfortunately, too many people like the idea that they can vote away somebody else's paycheck. That is the reason democracies always destroy themselves.

I would like to point out to those who claim that democracy is "the greatest good for the greatest number," that every coin has two sides. And that the greatest good for the greatest number also means the greatest victimization of the lesser number.

Quote:

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It must be nice living in the past and dreading the future. If there's nothing to look forward to, what's the point?

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I'm not living in the past Hiro, I was trying to explain that I have seen the past, and if the future is a continuation of what has happened in just the last fifty years then America HAS no future.

Vasily Kluchevsky, that giant of historical scholarship in the last century of Czarist Russia said it best; "The State swells up ... the people diminish."

Quote:

---

From the movie With Honors:

Simon Wilder: You asked the question, sir, now let me answer it. The beauty of the Constitution is that it can always be changed. The beauty of the Constitution is that it makes no set law other than faith in the wisdom of ordinary people to govern themselves.

Profesor Pitkannan: Faith in the wisdom of the people is exactly what makes the Constitution incomplete and crude.

Simon Wilder: Crude? No, sir. Our "founding parents" were pompous, white, middle-aged farmers, but they were also great men. Because they knew one thing that all great men should know: that they didn't know everything. Sure, they'd make mistakes, but they made sure to leave a way to correct them. The president is not an "elected king," no matter how many bombs he can drop. Because the "crude" Constitution doesn't trust him. He's just a bum, okay Mr. Pitkannan? He's just a bum.

-Hiro

---

The purpose of the constitution was -- and IS to limit the power of the government. Granted, provision was made to change it, unfortunately, there was no provision made to deal with what happens when the government ignores the Constitution. And that is the problem with the government today. Every elected official in the country is required to swear an oath to uphold the Constitution, and violation of that oath -- by writing, voting for, or enforcing an unconstitutional law -- is perjury. But who is going to enforce that oath? The government?

Too many people want to put all the guns and decision making power into the hands of a "strong" government ... and

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