Bush-Whacked by I.S.G.
POSTED BY: oldenglanddry
UPDATED: Saturday, December 16, 2006 22:05
VIEWED: 2563
PAGE 2 of 3
Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
"Ar you talkin' to ME?"
Not really.
Just reading the report's Executive Summary, I found plenty of short clips which, if taken out of context, could support most any position. It seems to be traditional in RWD for many of us to do this. I was hoping to get folk to read the whole document and form opinions, rather than just searching for validation of their pre-conceived notions.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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I see two options.
Make it a US State or protectorate.
(and i'll leave the feasibility of that one to your imagination)
Get the hell out.
Those are the only two logical, reasonable options.
-Frem
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Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
"Ar you talkin' to ME?"
Not really.
Just reading the report's Executive Summary, I found plenty of short clips which, if taken out of context, could support most any position. It seems to be traditional in RWD for many of us to do this. I was hoping to get folk to read the whole document and form opinions, rather than just searching for validation of their pre-conceived notions.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
I formed my pre conceived notions in 2003, before the invasion. I read a lot of stuff then, and was inpressed by Shinseki, who said he was gonna need 450,000 to 500,000 men to pacify the place, and by a comentator, ya know, one of those " liberal" media types, who said we would win the war but lose the peace. Sadly, what has happened since has proved those 2 opinions to be fact, in general terms.
I don't claim to be real smart, but I was smart enough to recognize this bad idea way back then.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
We know what DOESN'T work. No sense in falling back and trying that all over again.
Exactly.
And, please, don't get me started on United Nations. The only thing I can recall the U.N. ever doing right in its entire, sorry, 61 year history -- was its (probably reluctant) recognizion of Israel. The U.S. should cut off all of the funding we're tossing into their coffers, and kick their sorry posteriors out of New York. (Send them to somewhere like the Hague.) They're less than useless, appeasers of terror who actually make the League of Nations look competent by comparison.
Speaking of appeasement, I heard Sean Hannity quote Winston Churchill on his show yesterday. I've been a big fan of Churchill's and studied him for decades, but I honestly can't remember if I'd heard this quote before.
"Appeasement is the policy of a man that feeds the alligatior, hoping that the alligator will eat him last."
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Now here we have Slick trying to claim the moral high ground saying - read it first before you shoot off an opinion. And the ppl nominally on his side have completely ignored his plea. I wonder if he'll have anyting nasty to say about that, or will he let it pass?
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Now here we have Slick trying to claim the moral high ground saying - read it first before you shoot off an opinion. And the ppl nominally on his side have completely ignored his plea. I wonder if he'll have anyting nasty to say about that, or will he let it pass?
I'd like everyone to read the whole thing and address it on its own merits. I'm about half-way through a detailed look and there are a lot of issues and recommendations to absorb. I'll probably end up printing the whole thing out, since I'm old enough to be a marginal notes kind'a guy, and like to mark up the paper copy.
I'm not surprised that there are folks on both sides of the issue who will jump in willy-nilly with their opinions, or their assertions that the report supports their POV. Who wants to bother with reading 100+ pages of governmenteze when you have already settled on your position? And there's plenty of context-free soundbites in the report to back up most any version.
My question is - Does the ISG report offer a possible pathway to a reasonably stable and independent Iraq? The ISG admits that this is a difficult task. Is it even attainable?
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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just saw another of those " sound bites".
I saw references to it in 3 different editorial columns, one lefty, and one conservative. SInce I
didn"t
read the entire report, I can't prove it's in there, but I'll wager it is.
After the big troop reductions, by 1st quarter 2008, if everything goes as they suggest, there will be a remaining force of 70,000 men in Iraq, for however long.
SO we're gonna spend 18 months of continuing combat, and at the end of it, we will have reduced the American presence by a whopping 50 %.
This ain't making me happy.
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I haven't read the report, nor have I hear many clips from it. From what LITLLE I've heard, it doesn't sound do-able. Yeah, sure it would be nice to reconstruct Iraq and make their internal security/ armed forces pick up the load but...
Furthermore, some of the things I think NEED to be done have to be done very, very, quietly. Secretively in fact. Talking to Iran & Syria who are weighing in on one side, and Saudi Arabia & and Egypt who are preparing to weigh in on the other, for instance. Given our "kiss of death" reputation in the Middle East, any indications that ANY of these nations are cooperating with us could destabilize the less stable governments and bring others down a couple of notches... nothing that any government in the region wants to risk. So whatever deals we make have to be made while we're all loudly proclaiming that we're not talking to each other, pretty much the Iran hostage negotiations were done.
If I were the Study Group, I would have prepared two reports: a public report (like the one we got) and a private report. Who is closest to attaining leadership within the three major Iraqi groups. Who we can approach and support through intermdiaries. Which intermediaries can we use. What do we do to keep them from trying to grab everything.
---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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I heard some ex-servicemen (who were in Iraq) talking on the radio today, and they seemed to agree that the biggest problem with the Iraqi army (as it now stands) is that Iraqi's don't see themselves as "Iraqi's" -- but as Sunnis, Shiite, or Kurds, -- then by family clans.
If this is correct, they either need to adopt a sense of national unity or divide the country. As the later option is quite drastic, the former would certainly be preferable. Although, as to how it might be achieved, I have to say I'm at a loss.
The second thing I gleaned from listening to these servicemen was that when Iraqi military units fought under the direct command of an American unit (Iraqi units which had been specifically trained by and worked with American units), they conducted themselves with a high degree of precision and professionalism. However, those units which had not been specifically trained by and worked with American units, were very unprofessional and less than adequate.
They also mentioned that unlike the American military (and I would guess most militaries from industrial nations), whenever someone in the current Iraqi military decides they no longer want to serve, they just pack up and leave.
That's no way to run a military.
Like others here, I have not read the report (haven't the time), but one thing about it disturbs me -- the total lack of people on the commission with security or military expertise.
That's like asking a bunch of people who've never been in a kitchen to find a recipe that will work best for your dinner.
If that's the case, whoever picked these people needs to have their head examined.
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Quote:
Originally posted by oldenglanddry:
Even the Neo-Cons are saying lets get out of Iraq.
Is anyone surprised?
Apart from the obvious two.
Damn, read the title of this thread, and thought I was going to have to send Tony Soprano a Christmas card......
" Fighting them at their own game
Murder for freedom the stab in the back
Women and children and cowards attack
Run to the hills run for your lives "
http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/ironmaiden/liveafterdeath.html#12
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