Mary Sue - the thread.

POSTED BY: AgentRouka
UPDATED: Monday, April 2, 2007 19:42
VIEWED: 24098
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JAMESTHEDARK

Monday, November 27, 2006 11:53 PM

This test is sort of bottom-heavy. In order to get anything near a low score, you're character has to be positively drab. When I put in Jacob Greyson (the main character of the Legacy series, which follows another crew in the same 'Verse), I ended up getting a score of 30 on check-box test.

MS traits being:
He's covered in brutal scars from a fire during his youth.
He ran away from home after losing sister in said fire. Worse, he's guilty about it.
He becomes involved in a love-triangle.
He sires a son.
He violates another MS trait about lovers, but I can't say it because it'd ruin the dramatic potential.
He's about as competant as other characters, and more observant than many.
He doesn't die from somebody looking at him sideways.
He actually impacts the progression of the story.
He got snatched by the bad guy, and tortured, to make it worse.
He has an altruistic bone in his body.
He can speak two languages in a 'Verse where everybody else is expected to.
He's as agnostic and centrist as I am.
*gasp* He's a white male.

Non-MS traits:
He's not described at all for a long while, and he's not even the third character introduced at the beginning of the story.
He's not pretty. He's not hideous, either.
He's not in particularly good shape, nor is he very young. He starts the story at the edge of turning thirty.
He is in a committed relationship, and indeed, married.
While he is fairly perceptive, sometimes, he can be quite blind to things which are obvious to others, like his wife's borderline-sociopathy.
He is tough, but Zane (another character) is tougher, he's strong, but both Sylvia (who scored much higher on the test), and Casher (ditto with Sylvia) are stronger.
The renown he accumulates leads to embarrassing and compromising situations more often than it helps.
He screws up. Often. The love-triangle is a perfect example of this.

...
That test is rigged, I tell's ya'. Rigged!

EDIT: Just did the other test. Jacob scored a 28, which is better. I guess the other test wasn't as Sue loaded as the first one.

--------------
I ain't lookin' for help from on high. That's a damn long wait for a train don't come.

98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature.

MISSKITTEN

Saturday, December 16, 2006 5:43 PM

LOL, I decided to put my character "Leilah" (from my one-shot "Am I pretty?" where I wrote a story from the POV of one of Simon and Kaylee's two kids at age 6)

Mostly the questions I had to click "yes" for were questions like if the character was close to a Canon character, if a Canon character would die for your character etc... and I just though... well of course they would, it a child of two of the canon characters, so duh... lol

I ended up with the score 24 because of it... lol

*~*~*

"Joss, if you kill him now I'll stuff a compression coil up your ass sideways!"
~ Kaylee, "Serenity in 2000 words or less"

Kaylee's the perfect woman!

ANNUETTE

Sunday, December 17, 2006 11:26 AM

I don't like Mary Sues, i try to avoid them which if why i avoid fanfiction.net when the specific search engine is down. Saying that I like well written OC's who intergrate into 'verse and plot alike, I just think there are enough good characters in Firefly not to need Mary Sue's and I enjoy reading about them.

Admitedly I mainly read slash and gen so I don't see all that many of them, but when i do unless it becomes clear it isn't aMary Sue I hit the back button. I 'd enjoy reading about the crew meeting/talking/whatever with an OC but I don't want to read about a MS throing the crew off balance and making them OOC.

That's just my opinion. When i was younger i did write one and thankfully scrapped it but MS were one of the reasons i left one of my fandonms when it became so damn heavy with them, so when i can avoid I will.

TAMSIBLING

Sunday, December 17, 2006 7:06 PM

Okay - I didn't read everyone's post word for word, so forgive me if my comments seem slightly misguided, however ...

I think we need to make the distinction between Mary-Sue and OC. Not all OCs are Mary-Sues and vice versa. I agree with Mal4Prez - had the show gone on longer, Joss would have brought in new characters. Just look at Doyle from S1 of Angel, Dawn from S5 of Buffy, Riley from S4 & 5, Anya from S3, etc.

And he actually did introduce some OCs in the movie. Can you imagine the kind of story arcs Mr. Universe could have had if he'd been a regular on the series? There is no limit to the types of jams he could have helped our BDHs out of.

In my opinion an OC is brought on board to act as a foil for one or more of the canon characters. I agree, they are flawed, they wouldn't be any fun to write, nor would they have the kind of staying power or instill the type of loyalty us browncoats give them if they were cardboard cut-outs. However, our BDHs have known each other and been friends/family for years - after a time, the people who know you best may miss the signs that you are changing and/or struggling. Has anyone not found this with a best friend? Someone who you used to be so close to you couldn't tell you were two people and then one day grew apart?

It's a big 'verse and OCs are necessary to bring out some emotions in our characters, some other previously undiscovered character flaw, etc.

Now, Mary-Sues, for the purpose of being much too trite and "easy," are another matter, I agree. I have never created a Mary/Marty Sue for the express purpose of "fixing" a current BDH, however I do think there are examples on the site of some good ones. I absolutely adore the character of Freya that Jane0904 has written and I think part of the reason is that Freya does not have all the answers. She is as flawed, if not more so than Mal. Do I think it's a stretch that they're married? Yes, especially considering that Inara is still around, but if Freya were just an OC, I would still read about her.

I also think AWindsor's Pirate Children are inspired. They are the perfect amalgam of their BDH parents and always make me smile/laugh. I don't know if they're technically Mary/Marty Sues, but they are great characters.

I guess that's all ... rant done. Thanks for opening up this topic of discussion.

***
So ... explain to me your obsession with all things evil?

STORMWOLFDAWN

Tuesday, February 20, 2007 6:21 AM

This hasn't been posted on in awhile but since then the unseemly amount of stories being posted in the BSR with Mary Sues make me want to come back to this thread.

These writers need to realize that they are writing Mary Sues and not OCs that drive the plot. I don't want to read about some stupid girl who was in the Academy, who is all tough and not-perfect and doesn't have all the answers but still manages to be annoying because she is a Mary Sue. Re-read the Mary Sue test, Mary Sues arent perfect, just perfectly flawed. An author wants to write a Mary Sue then write an original novel with her original characters and post it on an original fiction archive. there are lots of those on the web, but the only OCs I want to read about are the ones that the crew end up killing in the end.

Mary Sues in an original novel are cool, because they become real character...ie Anita Blake, Ayla, Jane Eyre...hell I think Mal is a Marty Stu, but in fanfic Mary Sues are just annoying and not part of the scenery I and probably alot of people do not want to see.

The stuff in the BSR has gone downhill, I haven't read a good story on it in so long. Thank god for the Livejournals!

STORMWOLFDAWN

Tuesday, February 20, 2007 6:32 AM

Its true that in alot of original fiction the main characters can be considered Mary Sues but that's original fiction. Its their own universe and their own characters and it works especially if that 'proffesional writer' is really good.

But this is fanfiction and while there are some really good writers in fanfiction who can take the characters from the show, book, movie etc and create some really good stories, you still have people who come in and create OCs in an already created world and they become detested Mary Sues. It really only applies in fanfiction, though i will admit there are some original stories that the Mary Sues are really bad but that's just an indication of how horrible that writer really is. Mary Sue is a big indication of lack of talent in an author when it comes to fanfiction.

Yes Mal is probably a male version of a Mary Sue, he's the kind of tragic hero that a geeky guy like Joss would probably daydream he could be. But Joss is a hell of a writer who can create an original character and make him believable while us amateurs could only hope do justice to his characters and when amateurs bring in their own version of the person they wish they could be they fall short.

LEIASKY

Tuesday, February 20, 2007 8:45 PM

>Thank god for the Livejournals!

I agree about most of the stuff being posted in the BSR not being good anymore.

How about some links to those LJ's? I'm always looking for something good to read!

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

STORMWOLFDAWN

Tuesday, February 20, 2007 10:36 PM

Here you go...

Rayne Shippers
http://community.livejournal.com/rayne_shippers/

Firefly Fanfic
http://community.livejournal.com/ff_fanfic/

Here's a big list of livejournals some have fanfic some are just anything dealing with Firefly or Joss.

http://www.livejournal.com/interests.bml?int=firefly

And I have found a few good stories at Fanfiction.net. Mostly Rayne being as I am a huge Rayne fan. The cool thing about fanfiction.net is that you can do a character and pairing search.

LEIASKY

Tuesday, February 20, 2007 10:41 PM

Eh, not into reading River/Jayne fic. And I check the other link you posted frequently but rarely find anything interesting there either.

fanfiction.net is hit and miss really. Most of it is terrible but at least it has a halfway decent search function.

I'm just real picky about what I read so its hard to find anything I like.

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

STORMWOLFDAWN

Tuesday, February 20, 2007 10:54 PM

Its too bad you don't like Rayne but then I am against Jaylee myself and I know lots of people like it. Right now the best series I've read in a long time is a Rayne series by Dyce being posted on Rayne_Shippers and in fanfiction.net. Its absolutly wonderful and its slowly bringing River and Jayne together not tossing them into bed the first paragraph.

I also happen to love slash, and my favorite in slash is Mal/Jayne.
http://community.livejournal.com/shiny_hats/

A good link for a bunch of Firefly stories is here

http://firefly.populli.org/

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