Evil
POSTED BY: Geezer
UPDATED: Sunday, October 29, 2006 14:39
VIEWED: 8182
PAGE 12 of 14
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Strangely, when oxytocin levels are artificially increased (injection) they cause feelings of trust.
Oh, Crap! That statement just pushed MY paranoia button.(minutes later) After a quick google, I'm not quite so worried. Unless someone can develop a time release aerosol version, the short effective period looks to limit the "Mass mind control" possibilities.
Quote:
That feeling caused by oxytocin is the reward. It's the subtle perceptions going on in the mind that do the evaluation. And while some people can fake a persona or tell a good story that generates short-term trust, experience over time will prove it out, or not.
I agree in general, but think there should be a "usually" in that statement right before "...prove it out...". People's upbringing, beliefs, and biases sometimes shape their perceptions to the point at which they will ignore experience and fall back on what they were taught. Maybe just a nitpick.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Well, that's why I put in the 80% figure (my estimate for this culture). And these responses are trainable, like Pavlov's salivating dogs. That's a sad observation about US culture. It works really hard to wipe out a whole area of human emotions like trust and inclusion. People are to be 'hardened' into viewing life as a zero-sum competition.
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Assuming "good" is what increases oxytocin, that raises a whole bunch of questions and comments. Maybe you can pull them into a coherent whole.
Is "good" like "fear" or "disgust"... is there is some sort of a rapid but complex data processing that goes on in our reptilian brain, where past experiences are rapidly compared to the current situation (some sort of shuttling between the amygdala, the hippocampus and who knows what else) which "decides" and "reacts" before we're even fully aware of our own perceptions?
There are studies that show that children who grew up with pain sense pain more in later life. Children growing up in stressful circumstances, rather than being more robust, tend to be more fearful. Is there some similar situation with oxytocin- Are who children grow up in an oxytocin-stimulating environment more likely to produce oxytocin in later life?
What about the other "reward" neurotransmitter- dopamine, the addiction chemical? It seems as if there is something of a contradiction between the two reward systems: dopamine, I believe, tends to cause people to repeat behavior to achieve "exciting but intermittent rewards" (learning) while oxytocin seems to work in stable social situations. The reason why I'm wondering is that intermittant reward is a very powerful training tool and seems to be the basis of capitalism, which would be based on dopamine. Can oxytocin offer as powerful a reward, or can a system be designed that would involve BOTH reward systems w/o violating either?
Are there other rewarding neurotranmsitters?
And then, the social aspects- how does one create and maintain a social/ economic system that enhances oxytocin release? Even assuming that MOST people are producing oxytocin at higher levels due to a conducive environment, SOME people just by random chance will not produce much, or be dopamine junkies or adrenaline junkies, or be sheer sociopaths. But power, as I noted before, has a tendency to concentrate (positive feedback system). There needs to be something created that will interrupt that positive feedback. I've read of studies that show when people can confront cheaters DIRECTLY, cheating has a tendency to decrease. Other studies say that the greatest number of people that a person can respond to as individuals is about 100. But once someone gets out of reach of direct confrontaiton... like Bill Gates... it's too late for small groups and oxytocin. (Or do we set the adrenaline junkies on the dopamime junkies?)
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Hey SignyM
All excellent questions most of which I didn't think of myself. And the answer is, I have no clue.
I've just been reading about oxytocin in the last maybe five months. There are scattered studies pointing in the same direction but no overarching information synthesis.
I was kinda wondering what would happen if you could inject it into, say Ted Bundy - or someone like him. Would he feel something he never felt before? Is that why sociopaths tend to be male? (Oxytocin is the uterine contraction/ milk production/ bonding and nurturing hormone in women.)
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I'm also drawing on game theory and that infamous "Prisoner's Dilemma" tournament that U of T does every few years. "Tit for tat" works best between two individuals, and that other cooperative programs work best in multiple- player modes but only if the cooperators reach a threshold. The issue that I see is that social dynamics tend to favor the sociopathic in ANY society, and the dynamic seems to be that the power/economic pyramid grows taller and taller until revolution takes it down, and then the whole thing starts all over again. (The most egalitarian socieites- correct me if I'm wrong- seem to be small, ammenable to direct confrontation.)
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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I've been noticing the social dynamic myself.
Unfortunately I haven't really studied it and will probbaly not get to it until I retire.
What I wonder is - human technology tends to create an excess and concentrate it. Perhaps it's like the pile of fruit that distorts chimpanzee society. All these rewards worked pretty well during human evolution, but became counter-productive as excess became routine.
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I don't think excess/ concentrated production creates strife... or, let me put it this way, it doens't disappear in conditions of uiversal poverty. I recall reading a study that compared two displaced populations - the Tarahumara(?) in Mexico and another in Africa (I forget which ones). Altho similar in many respects (population size, poverty etc) the response of the first society was CLOSER cooperation and the response of the second was complete fragmentation- a Hobbesian nightmare.
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Oxytocin is also released during and after sex (along with prolactin in males, prolactin makes you sleepy, that's why men fall asleep after the act ladies).
Men tend to have more systemising characters and Women more Empthasising, add increased levels of Adrenaline and Testosterone I'd guess that's why Sociopaths more often tend to be male. Males are more aggressive and more likely to objectify other people.
Quote:You know they build vital parts of washing machines out of plastic when they'd be more or less the same price, work as well and last much much longer if made from metal. They make them out of plastic so that it will fail and people will have to buy the latest model.
What I wonder is - human technology tends to create an excess and concentrate it. Perhaps it's like the pile of fruit that distorts chimpanzee society. All these rewards worked pretty well during human evolution, but became counter-productive as excess became routine.
Or Computers, they get faster all the time, which is great except that means that expensive machine you bought last year is now obsolete.
It's called built in obsolesence. By design the product must fail to let something newer fill it's place.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Too much to think about ... I'm going to go do something easier now ... 
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