Mary Sue - the thread.

POSTED BY: AgentRouka
UPDATED: Monday, April 2, 2007 19:42
VIEWED: 24098
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EMPIREX

Sunday, October 8, 2006 4:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Stormwolfdawn:

Now I come to Firefly and the BSR. Its crawling with MS's, and most don't even knows they are MS's. If you want to create an OC then write an original story not fanfiction.

If you want to create MS like original characters, stick to original stories is what I say. There are nine really good well developed characters to play with in this universe, don't need any MS's to come along to have sex with their author's favorite char.

ITA! I'm pretty much a cannon-loving girl: Wash/Zoe, Kaylee/Simon, Mal/Inara, and I'm a bit of a fanfic snob myself.

It should be obvious. We don't read fanfiction to learn about someone else's OC/MS/Idealized Version of Themselves. We read fanfiction because we want more of the tv or movie characters that we love!
Now that's not to say that there are no good OCs. I've read some great Other Characters in Kaynara's Bed and Wine series (not to mention the only River/Jayne romance that didn't make me queasy!), The Pillow Book of Inara Sera, and various pre-Firefly fics featuring Mal's mother or other friends or family from Mal's past.

But nothing makes me want to

more than some thinly veiled version of the author inserted into the story for the sole purpose of doing nasty or (even worse) *romantic* things with our BDHs. Sorry. Don't wanna read it and I really wish I didn't have to wade through all the drivel to find the good stuff.

Is that harsh? Maybe.

STORMWOLFDAWN

Sunday, October 8, 2006 5:44 AM

Yep, totally with you there. I love all the cannon pairing, but I have to admit I am total Rayne babe. Can't help it. I also happen to love slash if its Jayne/Mal or Jayne/Simon but I did come from a fandom(The Sentinel) where slash was huge so I fell in love with slash there and brought that love with me to this fandom.

But yes, down with the damn MS's!!!

*****************************
"Shiny, Let's be bad guys." -Jayne

JETFLAIR

Monday, October 9, 2006 6:18 AM

Wow......every time I think I have my hands full dodging fic pitfalls, along comes something else I've never even heard of to worry about! As if the various fanfics I read that leave me wanting to scrub my eyeballs with brillo pads weren't enough.........

This was interesting to read though, as I think it goes a long way to explaining why I don't usually like original characters.

Now to the uncomfortable question......are my original characters Mary Sues? I only have two contenders in The Losing Side, both of whom started as very minor characters, but are slowly becoming more and more important to the story, especially in the stuff I've written but haven't posted yet.

The one who really worries me is Khiloh. Mary-Sue-ish qualities:

-He's human, but he doesn't have any glaring flaws. He saved Mal's life and has been a lifeline for Wash. He's kind, intelligent, insightful, a loving father, and very loyal to his friends. These facts are amplified by the fact that he's an Alliance prison guard and therefore should NOT be nice, kind, and loyal. He becomes a good and true friend to Mal and Wash. Also, I adore his character personally.

Not Mary-Sue-ish:

-No special powers, freaky hidden ties to the characters, no particular tragedy in his life, not any more talented than any of the characters, not a romantic interest to any of the characters (heck, he's married and has a kid), and I don't go on for pages about how handsome he is! He's not like me in particular, he's not female, and he's not going to die tragically saving Mals's life, either.

On the test, his score is 26 (waves at Mal4Prez). The thing is, I don't want to give him some gaping flaws. The whole reason he's in my story is that said story was in serious danger of devoloving into a sadistic exercise in surrounding Mal with horrible people putting him in miserable situations. In order to keep the feeling of humanity that Firefly had, my story desperately needed a few true good guys.

What's the verdict? :)

"Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you when she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home." .......We love you, captain.

"This is the captain. We may experience some slight turbulence and then.....explode"

www.serenityverse.com - Zoe necklace replicas, Serenity dogtags, jewelry, image gallery w/ custom DVD covers, other goodies!

MAL4PREZ

Monday, October 9, 2006 1:38 PM

*waves back to Jetflair*

I don't think Khiloh's an MS. He's got the unexepectedness of being a nice regular guy even though he's an Alliance soldier. That gives him depth, and fits Joss's idea that the Alliance isn't all evil.

Also, I don't see Khiloh telling Mal and Wash things that YOU would tell them if you were in the story, which is the thing that would get annoying.

BTW - I'm down with the MS bashing, but take it easy on OC's in general, okay folks? Joss would have brought in new characters, some briefly, some for longer stays. Us fanfic-ers are trying to continue the FF goodness in any way we can, and that has to include new characters. We can't help it if we're not as good as Joss!

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I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

JETFLAIR

Monday, October 9, 2006 1:54 PM

After a night of pondering on Mary Sues and the questions raised in that quiz, a few more random thoughts popped up. I'm still fuzzy on the exact definition of a MS, but it really would seem, as others have said already, that many, many professionally written characters fit that description.

I don't know how well these fit into the MS profile, but a couple of dynamics bug me a lot with how almost inevitable they seem in fiction:

The main characters will always have the worst luck in the world when it comes to getting into trouble, especially violent trouble, repeatedly and more so than any living person most of us will ever meet. But, they also have the best luck in the world when it comes to surviving, getting rescued, never suffering permanent injury (except for pretty scars), and never being particularly traumatized by what happens to them. (Sorry Mal, that's you! I still love you, though:)

Also, most fictional characters seem, well, dumber than the average human. They don't have intelligent conversations or know more than the average lab rat about human nature, nor do they make smart decisions. This, actually, is one of the reasons I love Firefly - it's an exception to that rule. The flip side to this is that the hero will all too often come up with a stroke of complete brilliance out of nowhere to save the day, then often return to being dumb as a rock. Yet, most authors ACT like their lead characters are intelligent.

So, while it's easy writing the existing Firefly characters, it's hard to add OCs and have them not be problematic. Dumb characters with strokes of brilliance are trite and boring; intelligent, insightful characters are Mary Sues. Hmmm.

The more I think about it, the more writing seems to become an exercise in avoiding pitfalls!

"Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you when she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home." .......We love you, captain.

"This is the captain. We may experience some slight turbulence and then.....explode"

www.serenityverse.com - Zoe necklace replicas, Serenity dogtags, jewelry, image gallery w/ custom DVD covers, other goodies!

LEIASKY

Monday, October 9, 2006 11:35 PM

I took a look at that little test to just see how my first attempt at putting two OC's into a story I'm currently working on would rate.

My first thought is that someone has WAYYYYYY too much time on their hands to create such a test.

My second thought was, the characters got an 11, I think I'm fine.

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

MAL4PREZ

Tuesday, October 10, 2006 7:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jetflair:
never being particularly traumatized by what happens to them. (Sorry Mal, that's you! I still love you, though:)

You haven't seen the sequel I'm working on, LOL!!

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I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

FRELLINGBLONDE

Tuesday, October 10, 2006 9:12 PM

*breathes a sigh of relief* I didn't think my OC had the makings of a Mary Sue (something I've been guilty of writing in the past, when I was like 14.) but I took the test anyway. Scored an 8. Just as I thought, she's too much of a lying b*tch to be a Mary Sue.

BROWNCOATJIM

Saturday, October 21, 2006 12:37 AM

ok, now someone is going to think i am an asshole for this, but maysues, to me, are a sign of immaturity in the writer. i never knew the term mary sue before tonight and looking at the wikipedia link ( i love wiki)and always just called them either simple 2 dimensional characters or superman-types. Personally, I have always preerred the dark and terribly conflicted type of character, but even he or she needs to be fleshed out with good traits and even humor and silly qualities. in other words a person, actual and whole ( doesn't that have a nice ring to it?).
How do you craft whole characters? In my opinion, before you can write about life, you need to live life. There is no substitution for experience. You need to know these people in your life, you need to have done these things yourself, before you can be a storyteller about them.
Finally, to me, how do you show the multiple facets of a given character? through dialogue with other characters. Show, don't tell, remember. Make the conversation as rel as your own conversations.

Simon: "Were there any Feds?"
mal: "No, no Feds, just an honest brawl between folk."

RIVERTHRACE

Thursday, November 23, 2006 2:19 AM

Knowing that
1. I'm not a persistent writer
and
2. Naturally immature (being a teenage girl who saw Firefly and all)
I prefer to imagine my personal time on board.I swear, I can do this for two hours before I sleep. Of course I'm much better looking and have a few cool skills.
Not to sound like an Anne Shirley or anything.
My point is, I too believe MSing should be kept private, to preserve dignity on all sides.

I am new. Feed Me.

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