Am I the only One?
POSTED BY: Chewie
UPDATED: Thursday, October 5, 2006 02:46
VIEWED: 15226
PAGE 10 of 11
Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Islamic law also bans the killing of non-combatants, something the Bible firmly does not do.
So the thousands that die every year in cafes and airports, mosques, churches and schools; women, children and the elderly, when an Islamic Jihadist straps a bomb to his chest and dies in the name of Allah are all combatants? Interesting. Here I thought they were unarmed civilians enjoying a cup o' joe, taking a flight, praying to their god or trying to better themselves through education. I guess I've been mistaken.
And if they are innocent civilians, then isn't a fundamental law of Islam being broken? Wouldn't Allah cast them into Hell for their transgressions? No because anyone they don't like is the 'Infidel' and is therefore the enemy and their death ensures seventy-something dark haired virgins in Heaven. I guess your right though, if I lived a shithole existance in a cave somewhere with nothing and I was force fed that little nugget of joy, I'd be first in line to strap a bomb to my chest and get what's mine.
War is Hell. It always has been. People will die, it's unavoidable. I do not agree with this bill, eventhough it's not what most would have you believe. If you read it, and I mean ALL of it, not just a few sentances, and you actually comprehend what the bill says rather than paraphrase and jump to conclusions, you'll see that it doesn't give the President Executive Powers that he didn't already posess. It's still wrong, and I encourage others to fight against it's passing. But I do so as a concerned citizen of this country, not because I'm some bleeding heart liberal, not because it's treandy to slam the administration, and certainly not because I care about the rest of the world. I'm concerned because though this bill doesn't apply to us now, it won't be long before they turn the microscope inward, and then it's going to suck.
And I appologize, Citizen, about my comments concerning the Irish, and I mean this with all sincerity. I was just presenting an alternative point of view. The British took that land fair and square, and as you say, a majority of the people in Ireland are Loyalist. Them arguing for their sovreignity is like (and I know this is not the majority viewpoint amongst them, please don't hate me) the Mexicans here saying that Texas, Arizona and California belong to Mexico because a traitor to their country sold them to the US long long ago. The borders are drawn. The alliances are established. The country is ours. Just as Britain, and all it's territories, are yours. When the day comes that a majority of Ireland wants to be independant, they will be.
As for arguing the points of the Bible versus the Koran or the Torah or any of those other Books out there, it's all reletive. All major religious texts (minus ones like the Book of Morman which is much more contemporary) were written by men in societies run by men. It was always He and Him and His, and women were always portrayed as the wrong doers. Just look at Eve. That instills sexism on a spiritual level. But I digress. The point that I was trying to make is that all religious texts were written by men, not God. God is infallible, man is not, therefore the Bible, Torah, Koran (et al) are fallible. They are books of bedtimestories that teach us (in most cases) how to be better people and that tried to explain the unexplainable in a period where science wasn't even a wetdream. Now, I'm not saying I don't believe in God, I do. There is no way I can believe that we are all a cosmic mistake born of hapenstance. We are the product of a Creator. I just don't run around thinking that my God is better than you Allah or his Yaweh, etc. But fundimentally, the concept of God's word is skewed because even if God himself came down and whispered into the author's ear, there's always dramatic interpretation. And when you translate the book from one language to another to another, something gets lost or undoubtedly changed. Truth is that what these men are dying f
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Baby- It doens't say "or other Military Tribunals"
As far as this bill not giving the Prez power he doesn't already have: I HAVE read all of the bill. What it gives the President the "right" to do is yank citizens off the street, put them before some sort of tribunal, hold them indefinitely without charges, and treat them in ways in which ONLY the President is accountable (Like Pontius Pilate, Congress washes its hands of any oversight... And I thought that was their job. Silly me!
)
So, seeing as you don't like the bill either- on what grounds do you disagree with it?
Quote:So, how 'bout that Pentagon! Makin' claims that 30% of the folks at Guantanamo were innocent! Gee, who'd-a thunk!
Your version of the world is nothing short of laughable. The claim that 'everyone knows' so many detainees were just simple farmers and shop keepers is backed up by what ? Oh, NOTHING!-auraptor
You must be the only person who DOESN'T know! So- whose word would you take? heh heh heh. I'll give you a chance to do some googling and retract your statement. Better do it QUICK, before I shove it up your *ss!- Signy
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Quote:
Originally posted by babywiththepower:
...I just don't run around thinking that my God is better than you Allah or his Yaweh, etc.
Those three are the same God. We are all the sons of Abraham...
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Quote:How did you think I was saying that they were? Of course this is what the real loonies say, this is what the IRA said, this is what all terrorists say.
Originally posted by Babywiththepower:
So the thousands that die every year in cafes and airports, mosques, churches and schools; women, children and the elderly, when an Islamic Jihadist straps a bomb to his chest and dies in the name of Allah are all combatants? Interesting.
Quote:Yes.
And if they are innocent civilians, then isn't a fundamental law of Islam being broken?
Quote:Yes.
Wouldn't Allah cast them into Hell for their transgressions?
Quote:So if I say the Christian god wants you to kill every non-Christian in the world and if you do this God will give you a penthouse in heaven that makes it so?
No because anyone they don't like is the 'Infidel' and is therefore the enemy and their death ensures seventy-something dark haired virgins in Heaven.
Quote:This is true for the Bible, however the Torah is only to be in Hebrew and the Koran in Arabic. You can get translations of both but these are not the same books (so the religions say) and followers are expected to learn the language of the religion to be able to read the original untranslated text.
Truth is that what these men are dying for, what they believe in their hearts to be true, might be a mistranslation or a blatant lie created by a masagonist that wanted to leave his mark on the world.
Throughout history people have read the bits of the Bible, Koran or whatever that supports their actions and ignore the ones they don't. Fanatic Muslims read the kill infidels thing and miss the "only while their attacking you" bit. Like people who kill in the name of Christianity (and they do exist in opposition to what the wilfully ignorant like AURaptor would have you believe) see the whole killing of the first born thing and miss the turn the other cheek bit.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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My questions may have gotten lost in the shuffle.
Baby- what it it specifically about the Bill that you don't like? I personally don't like several things about it, one of which is that it eliminates habeas corpus for Amercian citizens.
Auraptor: WELL????? (taps foot) YOu have yet to reveal why this bill is so very, very vital in the pursuit of terrorists.
Also, have you nothing to say about the Pentagon's own admission that 30% of Guantanamo detainees were innocent?
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Quote:
And AURaptor, it's you everyone knows is wrong. Even Bush, laughably, agrees that Gitmo has to be ended. Except he's now created a massive problem for himself and can't solve it.
Simon, stop acting like a 4 yr old. Bush never once said Gitmo 'has to be ended'. To the contrary, he specifically said he would NOT close Gitmo, and is proud of the purpose for which it serves. That's what this whole freakin' thread is about! Congress passing a law which ALLOWS Gitmo to remain open. Or did you somehow miss that fine detail ?
These terrorist were caught on the battle field, and I frankly don't care how they feel about the U.S. If they survive Gitmo, they have a life of living off the rocks and herding their goats. They can fume all they want under their turbans, I could care less.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Signym - Ben Benatta wasn't sent to Gitmo, was he ? Then that case isn't germane to the conversation per this thread. Nice try.
Why is this bill needed? I would say it isn't, and that the President has the right by virture of his office and that it's during war time. This administration has bent over backwards twice over in trying to appease the Left wing moon bats, and all it's gotten them is more vitriolic attacks. So the Liberal courts say he needs more permission from Congress. Fine. That's what the President has done. Inexplicably, non-uniformed terrorist combatants have been elevated to the status of uniformed soldiers. The Geneva Convention already HAS rules for those who dress in civilian clothes and attack a standing army....it's execution - on the spot! But instead, the U.S. as brought those fighters back, detained them ( as was done in WW2 ) and will likely keep them for as long as al Qaeda and like minded groups call for open war on the USA. Don't like it ? Tough. Should have thought of that before.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by babywiththepower:
Up until this point I simply thought you were naive. Now I know you're ignorant. If you think slaughtering people, innocents no less, is not only justifiable, but "what any sane person would do", you have a very sick,up sense of justice.
It's what any sane person's sense of justice would be after such treatment. If you re-elect someone who tortures and imprisons without due process, can you really call yourself innocent?
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Quote:And apparently you missed the part about the Pentagon saying that 30% of these folks were innocent. Auraptor- a lot of the detainees were NOT caught on the battlefield, nor are they all "terrorists". But you've made... and CONTINUE to make, despite solid evidence to the contrary... the sweeping assumption that every detainee IS an enemy combatant or a terrorist.
These terrorist were caught on the battle field, and I frankly don't care how they feel about the U.S.
You don't catch on too quick, do you? So maybe if I repeat it in big bold letters... you know, a visual slap upside the head... you'll stop repeating demonstrable nonsense.
NOT EVERY DETAINEE IS GUILTY
I know that may be too subtle of a distinction for you. But try, please try, to remember.
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Quote:I wasn't talking about Gitmo and neither were you. And neither is this thread. That's NOT EVEN a "nice try".
Ben Benatta wasn't sent to Gitmo, was he ? Then that case isn't germane to the conversation per this thread. Nice try.
Quote:That's only half of a thought. Complete your thought, if you dare: the President has the right, by virtue of his office to... to...
the President has the right by virture of his office and that it's during war time.
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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