Am I the only One?
POSTED BY: Chewie
UPDATED: Thursday, October 5, 2006 02:46
VIEWED: 15226
PAGE 7 of 11
God I hate topics like this, but they're like a train wreck and I tend to gravitate toward them. This bill has it's pros and cons (the cons being present soley in scope). Please read my whole post before you pass judgement on what I'm saying.
Pros: Enemy Combatants will finally be subject to treatment deserving of enemy combatants. With this bill, no longer will the US be beholden to a set of rules that only it was expected to follow. Extremests cut the heads off our soldiers and civilian contractors, blow them up with IED traps, execute them point-blank, on their knees and broadcast the video of the soldiers pointing and laughing at our fallen, cutting off our soldiers genitallia and shoving it down their throats after cutting out their hearts, yet the Geneva Conventions require us to coddle them, garuntee medical attention and garuntee them food and shelter, in some case better than what the soldiers gaurding them recieve. This bill will make sure that shit comes to an end.
Cons: (And in my opinion, this trumps all good that can come from this bill) The President or those in his control (i.e. CIA, DHS, etc) can lable anyone a terrorist and therefore can dub them as Enemy Combatants and do whatever they want to them. That is what is scary.
And to those that ask why people complain when the President does something to protect us, I say you are blind and part of the problem. You might be comfortable knowing that you will never be suspect and fall victom to this bill, hell I know I will never be directly affected by it. But if something like this passes and it's ignored by us, it won't be long before they pass a bill that will affect you, and by that time it will be too late. We're on a very slipery slope here people, and letting all these Civil Rights atrocities happen because it's making us 'safe' has got to stop. The 'Patriot' Act was the first big step in stripping us of our Freedoms. What's it going to take for people to see that?
And all this from a person that finds the constant Liberal rhetoric grating, nauseating and infuriating. You don't have to be a Liberal to be able to see what's right in front of you. To steal a term from my brother, the Republicrats have got us all believing in the lie that is the two party system. When the Democrats are Communist and the Republicans are Liberal (and on everything other than gay marriage, they pretty much are), it doesn't leave much for us to hang onto. We need a third party, and we need it fast. Maybe then the Government will once again be of the people, by the people and FOR the people, rather than looking out for their own interests.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'll be in my bunk.
http://www.myspace.com/babywiththepower
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This scares the shit out of me. Anybody who has seen my posts might know why I'm afraid they will come and take me away in the middle of the night. I'm trying to figure out exactly which day it was that I woke up and I realized that I was more afraid of my own government than I was of any enemy overseas. I know it wasn't before I read 1984, but it wasn't right afterwards either... it took a little while for me to realize that the book was not science fiction and everything that happenened in that book is happening today, just not at such a dramatic level.. it's all behind the scenes... constantly pushing that envelope until one day we finally agree to let them put cameras or soldiers in our own homes to ensure our "safety".
Had I not read that book, I think there's a very good chance that I wouldn't be thinking any of these thoughts right now. This is no doubt why they don't care to teach it much at public school anymore.
Tread carefully with your words brother, especially now that you can see... There's no reason for both of us to take a trip to the Ministry of Love. You were a soldier and already in the good graces of Big Brother. He has nothing if he does not have the utmost destain for me, and those who think the way that I do.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Auraptor, you just plain don't want to live in America, and you shouldn't have to. You could take your pick from any number of totalitarian regimes where the people of a country are not THE government, where the people answer to it and not the other way around. But I plead with you not to help to turn our great nation into one of those...
if all you have to offer is nationalism then you are not an American. You must fight for the things that make us different from those other countries, and if you don't, then I just plain don't see why its important whether your version of America stands or falls.
What is it about 'of the people, for the people, and by the people' that you don't understand? This has been our national identity. We are our governors and we need information to make good decisions about who we elect to represent our voice.
You say that you have faith that this administration only tortures those who they know are the terrorists. You base this on what? Their track record of accuracy and competence? Bush said Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. By his own admission, he was WRONG. Rumsfeld said the war would last no more than 6 months. How'd he do? Bush's people said they read the paper and learned that Katrina dodged a bullet...yeah and got hit by a tactical nuke. Bush said nobody in his administration was involved in the Valerie Plame leak. Bush failed to get Bin Laden at Tora Bora, outsourced the force meant to capture him...didn't surround him. The Bush administration has consistently failed to get armor to the troops. Bush said 'bring em on' and later had to say 'sorry.' Cheney continues to dishonestly link Iraq with 9/11 even while Bush tells the public when he's called on it, 'it has nothing to do with it'. Bush signs a bill to keep Terry Chiavo alive - autopsy reveals Terry chiavo has been brain dead for years, brain turned to mush. His appointment to the EPA was doctoring reports, taking out words and rewriting sentences to fabricate doubt about our role in global warming. The Taliban is back in Afganistan because we did a bang-up job there. Our intelligence agencies are no fly listing people like Ted Kennedy and Randi Rhodes - and don't tell me they actually think they are terrorists going to blow up a plane.
Those are cases where they are getting it wrong, aren't they?
I know what would be easier! What has the administration been right on. Not what you think they might be right on, but what they have proven to be right on, because there is not one thing they have ever done to make me trust their competence on something so in need of certainty.
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Quote:I have the mental capacity of a child for not backing up what I said (which you didn't do either) and yet I didn't resort to name calling. Really it's amazing how while trying to insult someone you nearly always prove that insult is more applicable to you. You want facts from me, but you've got none to bring yourself, that's just dishonest. Your post my dear boy is nothing more than the ravings of a disobedient child "Is not you stupid poo poo head!".
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Citizen - It's clear from your post that you have the mental capacity of a child. I stated that the Nazis didn't in any way say what you claim they did. They didn't. Not only did you FAIL to back up your claim, your retort was nothing less than that of a child's " Is too! ".
Now the more I converse with Americans the more I'm pushed to the opinion that you do not have history lessons at school, at least not lessons that teach history, if you did you'd know little things like the rhetoric the Nazi's used against the Jews and the Bolsheviks they are in league with. Perhaps you were to busy drawing penises on the pictures of historical figures to pay attention, who knows. I learnt that at GCSE level, obviously you did not. Since you require that lesson:
The Nazi's said the Jew was evil and in league with Bolsheviks to attack the nation of Germany, partly because they were jealous of the Aryan master race and wanted to eradicate it, and partly because they were, well evil. Evil is as evil does I guess.
Quote:
Joseph Goebbels (he was a Nazi) From the Article "The Jews are Guilty!" printed in the Newspaper Das Reich (The Realm) on the 16 of November 1941.
Every Jew is our enemy in this historic struggle, regardless of whether he vegetates in a Polish ghetto or carries on his parasitic existence in Berlin or Hamburg or blows the trumpets of war in New York or Washington. All Jews by virtue of their birth and their race are part of an international conspiracy against National Socialist Germany.
There ya go, I've backed up what I said, your turn, or you know do you're usual thing of deflecting the argument you've already lost with a flame war you're already trying to start
.Quote:AU I never called you a Nazi, in fact I don't think you are one I merely pointed out that you sound like one. And really you do, in fact lets break your message of hate down:
Then you ignore the facts of my post as you ignore what is going on in the world. The fact of the matter is NO group around the world is more wicked, more violent, more heartless and more obsessed w/ killing their fellow man than Muslims. Even when it comes ot killing other Muslims, they don't care. That simple yet hard, cold fact is what you refuse to accept. I don't apologisze for seeing this, you run from it. You want to ignore the facts and grant cover for your appeasement by calling me names ( racist, nazi, bigot, etc... ) when you can't even back up your claims. I of course am none of those names which you assault me with, as those who know me would confirm. I simply don't like folks who saw heads off those who won't pray as they pray. You seem to think that's just fine and dandy. Goodonya, mate. If ever the situation comes that you'd need saving from the blood thisty Islamic zealots, and I'm in a position to help.......
AU on Muslims:
Then you ignore the facts of my post as you ignore what is going on in the world. The fact of the matter is NO group around the world is more wicked, more violent, more heartless and more obsessed w/ killing their fellow man than Muslims.
Goebbels on Jews:
The naivete, not to mention ignorance, with which certain European circles see the Jewish Question in the fourth year of this gigantic struggle is astonishing. They cannot or will not see that this war is a war of the Jewish race and its subject people against Western culture and civilization. Everything that we Germans and Europeans, defenders of the principle of a moral world order, hold dear is
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Quote:Have you acquainted yourself with the Magna Carta, Constitution, and the issues of 1776? King George, and the Kings before him, had many powers that the Founding Fathers wanted to eliminate. AMONG THEM were the powers to detain people without charges, to break in the door and search homes and businesses w/o cause, torture confessions out of people, hold trials in secret, and to outlaw public discussion and dissent. Surely you're aware of habeas corpus!
Second, I'm not giving Liberty away. You nor no one have shown where our liberties are being threatened.
Quote:A reading of the bill (and I HAVE read the bill- have you?) gives back many of these powers to George Bush, and makes no distinction whatsoever between American citizens or foreign nationals. As long as the President calls someone- ANYONE- an 'enemy combatant' all rights go out the window. I suggest that you go look it up because - as usual- you're talking out of your ass again.
Also, we aren't talking about 'random detention',of U.S. citizens and you know it. We're dealing w/ foreign nationals working outside any State affiliation
Quote:IN BATTLE. Not in jail. If you meet someone on the battlefield and they don't represent any particular nation they may fall into the "Spy, saboteur, or enemy combatant" category. But on thing the FF did NOT do was grab people off the streets- people who were doing no demonstrable harm- and hold them in jail indefinitely "just because". And if someone had urged that power on them they would have recoiled in horror.
As for the FF, they were all for killing such renegades, as seen in how we dealt w/ pirates early in this country's history. Find 'em and kill 'em.
Quote:I keep telling you- you've been watching too much 24 and reading too many Clancey novels. And THIS is where you get your views of the "real world" from???
Also, it does benefit, on occasion, the Gov't not telling us WHO they have, or where. Why ? Because Gov'ts tend to play games w/ each other and with terrorist groups. Ever read a Tom Clancy novel? The power of information, and keeping certain information from those who can use it best is a large part of the game. Keeping the TERRORIST in the dark as to who has their top men limits the things they can do. Do we know as much as they fear we know ? It's a shell game, and the US is doing a fairly good job at it.
But Auraptor, you are once again committing the very fundamental error- which you have not addressed- of showing that it is necessary to be able to randomly detain American citizens on American soil w/o due process. Our system of laws provides for all kinds of procedures for obtaining warrants and detaining people. Tell me exactly what the flaw is that this law is attempting to correct. I'll bet you can't.
Once oversight is lost you have the grave possibility that entirely innocent people will be swept up and detained ad infinitum, where coerced information can be used against them and they are not free to see the evidence.
We have that situation in Guantanamo. EVERYONE knows that a large percentage (the CIA says 30%, others say 60%) of the detainees were handed over to the USA simply for the bounty or to settle personal grudges. These people, many of them just farmers or shopkeepers, were waterboarded for intel that they didn't have. We can't let them go NOW, because NOW they hate the USA with a passion and they have interesting stories to tell. SO what do we do? Keep them until they're too old or too crazy to care or until they learn to say "I love Big Brother"?
So I'm going to ask you YET AGAIN- show me why this law is NECESSARY to rpotect us agaisnt terrorists.
---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Why is it when ever this President tries to do something which helps protect this country from a very real threat of ISLAMIC terrorism, a specific group of whiners tries to portray it as a fate worse than getting your head cut off ? Whether it's disrupting the financial transactions of terrorist groups, intercepting their phone calls or trying to get relevent information out of those who have sworn to murder as many innocent men/women and children as possible, some still see it as a violation of OUR rights that this Gov't should take steps to protect its citizens
Tell me, just what the HELL are we suppose to do? Act nice to the terrorist and hope they'll go away ? They attacked us LONG before this President came into office, and we did virtually nothing. They kept killing, and this President has finally tried to fight back. Why the HELL is that so god damn wrong ? And spare me the crap about torture. We do NOT torture, not by a long shot. We probably should, in some rare instances, but we don't.
When the 1st innocent citizen gets caught up in this so called threat to our rights, THEN I'll give notice. Not before. This is a war that far too many are denying even exists. This is a war that we did NOT start, and has already come to our shore. Some still refuse to see what is really going on, and instead are putting petty partisan politics ahead of the security of our nation, even the rreservation of civilization itself.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
A.Q1) Because whiners...erm, ahhh...WHINE! haha I got it. DOO dah doo bap bap baa.
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Quote:
Originally posted by babywiththepower:
God I hate topics like this, but they're like a train wreck and I tend to gravitate toward them. This bill has it's pros and cons (the cons being present soley in scope). Please read my whole post before you pass judgement on what I'm saying.
Pros: Enemy Combatants will finally be subject to treatment deserving of enemy combatants. With this bill, no longer will the US be beholden to a set of rules that only it was expected to follow. Extremests cut the heads off our soldiers and civilian contractors, blow them up with IED traps, execute them point-blank, on their knees and broadcast the video of the soldiers pointing and laughing at our fallen, cutting off our soldiers genitallia and shoving it down their throats after cutting out their hearts, yet the Geneva Conventions require us to coddle them, garuntee medical attention and garuntee them food and shelter, in some case better than what the soldiers gaurding them recieve. This bill will make sure that shit comes to an end.
Cons: (And in my opinion, this trumps all good that can come from this bill) The President or those in his control (i.e. CIA, DHS, etc) can lable anyone a terrorist and therefore can dub them as Enemy Combatants and do whatever they want to them. That is what is scary.
And to those that ask why people complain when the President does something to protect us, I say you are blind and part of the problem. You might be comfortable knowing that you will never be suspect and fall victom to this bill, hell I know I will never be directly affected by it. But if something like this passes and it's ignored by us, it won't be long before they pass a bill that will affect you, and by that time it will be too late. We're on a very slipery slope here people, and letting all these Civil Rights atrocities happen because it's making us 'safe' has got to stop. The 'Patriot' Act was the first big step in stripping us of our Freedoms. What's it going to take for people to see that?
And all this from a person that finds the constant Liberal rhetoric grating, nauseating and infuriating. You don't have to be a Liberal to be able to see what's right in front of you. To steal a term from my brother, the Republicrats have got us all believing in the lie that is the two party system. When the Democrats are Communist and the Republicans are Liberal (and on everything other than gay marriage, they pretty much are), it doesn't leave much for us to hang onto. We need a third party, and we need it fast. Maybe then the Government will once again be of the people, by the people and FOR the people, rather than looking out for their own interests.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'll be in my bunk.
http://www.myspace.com/babywiththepower
You got your Pros correct....Your Con is not true at all. Can't label "anyone" a terrorist.
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If you're going to pretend to debate Kaneman, then by all means, what provision is it that prevents them from labeling anybody a terrorist?
Wait! don't even try to answer that...just post something about me asking the question in a whiny liberal kind of voice. Then your mom can drive you to school and you can pull a few pig-tails.
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You anti-habeas corpus folks have got it all wrong- again. But you haven't read the Bill, have you? So as usual, nothing but diarrhea comes out your mouths. I'll make it easy for you. You can link to the Bill thru this site- just click on the "Senate Version" Under Definitions- right at the very beginning- they define "Enemy Combatant" who is (1) someone who materially aids hostilities aginst the USA or (2) anyone the President says is an enemy combatant. Nothing there about being on a battlefied or being a foreign national.
http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2006/09/congress-sends-military-
commissions.php
Auraptor- Are you really serious about the "first innocent person" statement? Because I remember one for sure- a same-name person that we "rendered" for interrogation who was finally released inot Yugoslavia after several months of torture. If I find the info, will you finally open your eyes?
---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Has anyone seen this yet?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,,1885684,00.htm
l
Chewie
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