Am I the only One?
POSTED BY: Chewie
UPDATED: Thursday, October 5, 2006 02:46
VIEWED: 15226
PAGE 6 of 11
Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Geneva Conventions are treaties signed by reciprocating nations. Al Qaida & other maniac Islamic Terrorist murderers are not any nation and have never signed any civilized treaty about prisoner treatment.
Our soldiers and civilians have been kidnapped, tortured ( real torture, not US type coersion), been beheaded, been tied up to bridges and set ablaze, etc etc. The vile enemy uses women and children to kill other women and children.
These animals have no rights, they are not civilized men, just murderers and promulgators of madness and insanity.
We should do whatever is ever necessary to defend and protect American citizens.
My case rests your honour.
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Quote:Okay... so: what is necessary?
We should do whatever is ever necessary to defend and protect American citizens.
Writing a law that allows arbitrary detention of anyone, even tho current laws and procedures are sufficient?
Spying on US citizens en masse- tracking phone calls, financial transactions etc of average citizens w/o reason and therefore w/o warrants- even tho all that does is generate an impossibly large haystack in which to find few needles?
Torture people for information, even though all that generates is a lot of false leads?
Breaking the Federal budget by invading a nation that had NOTHING to do with the attacks on America?
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I "get" that you're scared and angry. I'm even with you on the "whatever is necessary" tack. But we have very different definitions of "necessary". Put on your thinking cap and pretend you're President of the USA with 16 Intelligence Agencies, the military, the National Guard, Immigration/ Border Patrol, Transportation, and some international intelligence at your disposal. You know there are some people- maybe as many as 20,000- who want to attack the USA and kill USA citizens. You know that most of them are in the Middle East. Now think: If YOU were to fight terrorists, how would YOU go about it?
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I always thought people got smarter as they got older.
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Thank you Jongsstraw-man for your contribution, but nobody has voiced concern about torturing terrorists for the sake of the terrorists.
The major concern was that there is no oversight, no accountability over who decides who is a terrorist..there is no way we can be sure they aren't torturing innocent people. That should bother you.
The other major concern is that by allowing torture(or whatever the hell the wack jobs on the right want to call it) we are telling the world that these methods are within a reasonable limit if they wish to do the same thing to American troops. We are saying trial by jury is not a better way, nor is treating human beings with dignity and some sort of humanity. Go ahead, say that we only do it to terrorists. The rest of the world does not believe it, and quite frankly, they could say the same thing if they chose to.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
rue wrote:
Friday, September 29, 2006 14:50
AUraptor, I recall he was a fervent Bush supporter even before 9/11. Unfortunately the archives don't go back far enough.
Darn right they don't go back that far. That would be before this site even existed!!! So, exactly how do you 'recall' that I was a fervent Bush supporter before 9/11 ?
Because it came up for discussion (obviously after the fact) and that is what you said. Are you telling me you DIDN'T think Bush's response to the spy-plane incident was OK? I just want to be clear about this, and the answer I'm looking for is very simple - either yes or no.
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Anyway, I don't believe a large number of Bush supporters are driven by fear. Though I do think a large number of the quiet people who go along with the administration are driven by fear of the administration and its supporters.
I was waiting for people to post in the 'I support Bush because' thread ..., but it seems like it requires a level of honesty that's beyond most. Most Bushites seem to be too - ashamed? - to come out and even say that they do support him, let alone explain the driving reason why.
Laziness, fear, and greed have been proposed for why people support this. If I missed some proposals, I apologize. I think a good case could be made for all of them.
But it occurred to me that it could be more personal and less definable than one simple word. For example, let's take a hypothetical southern white male 50 - 60 years old. His formative years were spent in the comfort and security of US-style apartheid - segregation. It promised him there would always be a place for him, no matter how low, among the ruling - not the ruled. Among the assumptions that come with that life are that there are rulers and ruled (masters and slaves), owners and workers, and that as a white male he would always have guaranteed status. Being able to make that assumption is a type of security with roots in laziness, greed, and fear. And that's why each of those can reasonably explain his responses.
It's understandable, I think, that people seek the form of security they know. So for that hypothetical white male, no rule is beyond consideration as long as it doesn't violate the basic positive assocciations from childhood. That person would be expected to support capitalism, hierarchies, and rule by white males.
And so, while you can perhaps group supporters with similar characteristics, it may not be possible to come up with a one word cause for everyone.
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Fear is the mind-killer.
Support torture, you all of the dead mind.
The rest of us have evolved beyond that, right Rue?
Chrisisall, sick of the nonsense, tired of the reverse-righteousness
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Quote:
Saturday, September 30, 2006 03:29
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
No, that's not at all what the Nazi's said.
Yes it is. Perhaps you should start reading history rather than rewriting it.
Quote:
The Nazi's used the Jews as scapegoats for all the problems following post WW1 Germany. Fact is, WW1 is what caused Germany's problems, not the Jews. And the Islamic terrorist really ARE trying to kill us. They've repeatedly said so. They've murdered Theo Van Gogh, they decapitated Christian school girls in Malaysia, they raped, shot and blew up over 200 children in Beslan, Russsia, sawed the heads off of over a dozen international workers in Iraq, blew up trains in London and Madrid, murdered 3,000 people in NY, D.C. and Pennsylvania......
For you or anyone to compare the Nazi's propaganda concerning Jews in the 1930's to the very REAL events going on today is to show a level of denial and ignorance unparalleled in human history.
It really does stagger my mind that so many don't see this for what it is. If I tried to figure your mindset on this, I'd go crazy.
I can pick any group that has done things on a par with what you just posted. So who do you want me to malign as the new danger to world freedom? Americans, Britons, Christians, Jews, Postal Workers, Communists, Capitalists, Mothers, Fathers, Candlestick makers? Just say the word and I'll give you a new scapegoat for all the worlds ills.
There's certainly a level of denial and ignorance going on around here, I think some people are confusing where it's coming from...
Citizen - It's clear from your post that you have the mental capacity of a child. I stated that the Nazis didn't in any way say what you claim they did. They didn't. Not only did you FAIL to back up your claim, your retort was nothing less than that of a child's " Is too! ".
Then you ignore the facts of my post as you ignore what is going on in the world. The fact of the matter is NO group around the world is more wicked, more violent, more heartless and more obsessed w/ killing their fellow man than Muslims. Even when it comes ot killing other Muslims, they don't care. That simple yet hard, cold fact is what you refuse to accept. I don't apologisze for seeing this, you run from it. You want to ignore the facts and grant cover for your appeasement by calling me names ( racist, nazi, bigot, etc... ) when you can't even back up your claims. I of course am none of those names which you assault me with, as those who know me would confirm. I simply don't like folks who saw heads off those who won't pray as they pray. You seem to think that's just fine and dandy. Goodonya, mate. If ever the situation comes that you'd need saving from the blood thisty Islamic zealots, and I'm in a position to help.......
Yeah, right. Enjoy your prayer rug, buddy.
Quote:
Because it came up for discussion (obviously after the fact) and that is what you said. Are you telling me you DIDN'T think Bush's response to the spy-plane incident was OK? I just want to be clear about this, and the answer I'm looking for is very simple - either yes or no.
rue- It's obviously NOT what I said, despite your specious claim, or else you'd be able to offer a quote. You can't because there is no quote, for the reasons I stated. Grow a spine and for once admit you're full of shit. Don't try to spin what you said into some irrelevent nonsense about the spy plane incident. That wasn't the basis of your claims, and you know it. I don't even recall even commenting on that here, so I'm sure as hell YOU don't recall what I said either. I supported Bush's tax cuts ( which were prior to 9/11 ) and commend him for his effort to fix social security. However, your claim that I was a 'fervent' Bush supporter before 9/11 is with out merrit, and you should swollow your false pride and admit you were wrong.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:Auraptor- The Founding Fathers managed to fight the British and create a new nation.... while their lives, homes, businesses and families were at stake. It wasn't even popular to be a rebel. And not only did they NOT resort to the kind of oppression that you long for they created a document with all of these wonderful guarantees of freedom. THEIR minds weren't enslaved by fear, they weren't looking for the ultimate safety blanket, THEY were focused on liberty. Would you give that away? Are you saying we can't manage half of what they did?
Luckily there are people out there who aren't cowards, and are prepared to work to keep you safe.
And BTW- You STILL haven't made the case that giving up habeas corpus (and a whole bunch of other rights) is even necessary in any sense. History shows us that the the FF and Lincoln won without the power of random detention. Unless you show us that it is necessary, I will count your opinion as shivering, naked fear of the bogeyman.
But remember, Auraptor- bullets can never kill a nightmare. No laws will ever make you feel safe. No matter what you sacrifice to your fear you will still be afraid. Because fear doesn't come from
the outside- it is within you.
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I faced the bogeymen and came out the other side. You can too.
First of all, you're responding to a quote I didn't make.
Second, I'm not giving Liberty away. You nor no one have shown where our liberties are being threatened. All I see is simply hyper overreactions by those who will stop at nothing to disparage the current administration for purely political reasons, while offering nothing remotely constructive in the manner of defeating Islamic terrorism. Build back the wall between the FBI and CIA ? For what purpose ?
Also, we aren't talking about 'random detention',of U.S. citizens and you know it. We're dealing w/ foreign nationals working outside any State affiliation, which would be covered by the Geneva Convention rules. As for the FF, they were all for killing such renegades, as seen in how we dealt w/ pirates early in this country's history. Find 'em and kill 'em. There was no hand wringing over what RIGHTS pirates had, they were to be killed, so they woulnd't pirate any more. Simple as that. Same rules should apply for Jihadist. Kill'em, and be done w/ it. But instead, we're capturing them and sending them down to a Cuban resort club. Oh well, at least we know where they are.
Your ridiculous assertion that this reaction toward Islamic terrorism is 'fear' based is simply a strawman argument. Real fear mongering comes from Global warming nuts who scream about a threat which will never materialize. Dealing w/ Islamic terrorism is at least being pragmatic, and and most being HUMAN. You know what it's like to be human, right? That tinge of empathy one feels when seeing thousands of starving children in Africa (again and again ) as the result of yet another politically driven genocide. Some speak for women's rights across the world, yet where it's 'culturally' accpeted for female circumcision, or honor killings of a young woman who either did or didn't resist enough as she was getting raped. This is the middle east, and africa, under Islam. ( Not strictly Islam, but in large part ) Pointing out Islam's wicked and violent side, TODAY, is nothing we should run from. On this matter, the Pope was 100% right.
There is no discussion on this matter. Not with anyone who is intellectually honest.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Auraptor, we shouldn't have to prove to you that this isn't being abused, the administration should have to prove to us that it isn't. Can you prove based on FUCKING OVERSIGHT that they are not torturing innocent people? Can you prove it?
This is America and our government is damned well supposed to answer to its people. Tell me one good god damned reason why we would torture when it isn't reliable, and more, why we need secret prisons and can't know who they arrest?
And Fat fucking chance that they wouldn't let the public know if they cought real terrorists. They tell us every damned time they think they killed a #3 al quiada member or foiled a plot to hijack planes, but these people have to be kept a secret? WHY?
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Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:
Auraptor, we shouldn't have to prove to you that this isn't being abused, the administration should have to prove to us that it isn't. Can you prove based on FUCKING OVERSIGHT that they are not torturing innocent people? Can you prove it?
This is America and our government is damned well supposed to answer to its people. Tell me one good god damned reason why we would torture when it isn't reliable, and more, why we need secret prisons and can't know who they arrest?
And Fat fucking chance that they wouldn't let the public know if they cought real terrorists. They tell us every damned time they think they killed a #3 al quiada member or foiled a plot to hijack planes, but these people have to be kept a secret? WHY?
Sorry, but you have allowed you emotions to take over thinking for you and you have things entirely 180 degrees backwards. The burden of proof does not lie upon the Gov't ( or me) to prove they DON'T abuse their power, but for those making the ascertion that such power IS being abused in the first place.
I don't presume we DO torture in the 1st place. You do. But I'm 100% confident that if any such activity did go on, it was only those who had the most info to give up. That's what OUR Gov't is suppose to do, job one, protect its citizens. Not fret over the rights of terrorists.
Also, it does benefit, on occasion, the Gov't not telling us WHO they have, or where. Why ? Because Gov'ts tend to play games w/ each other and with terrorist groups. Ever read a Tom Clancy novel? The power of information, and keeping certain information from those who can use it best is a large part of the game. Keeping the TERRORIST in the dark as to who has their top men limits the things they can do. Do we know as much as they fear we know ? It's a shell game, and the US is doing a fairly good job at it. Or would be, were it not for the appeasers across the world who think we should play fair w/ the terrorists, while allowing THEM to break every law and rule of civilization.
And no, I don't blindly trust any Gov't. They seem to go out of their way to hide things which need not be hidden. But that's for another thread.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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