Mary Sue - the thread.
POSTED BY: AgentRouka
UPDATED: Monday, April 2, 2007 19:42
VIEWED: 24098
PAGE 2 of 9
Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
Have to say, I think most ficcers are MS-ing to some degree. Statistically, the majority are young and female, so there are a large number of Kaylee/River indentifiers. If you can't fit yourself into the skin of existing characters, that's when the fun starts.
Very good point.
Kaylee-Sue and River-Sue are very common, I think, because the characters already have very very slight Sue-esque traces, in that their flaws have not yet been explored a lot on the show. They're geniuses (each in her way) and pretty. Kaylee is the universally beloved and overprotected sunshine, River is super-tragic, occasionally snarky fighter-psychic girl who carries gruesome secrets. (Hell, it's a miracle Joss managed to pull off her character as three-dimensional in the first place!)
Some writers let themselves be seduced into writing them as Mary-Sues, arund whom the whole crew revolves and for whom normal rules are bent. River dictating to others how they should live their lives because she can "see how they really tick" comes to mind.
And hey, why should being a writer stop you? You have a right to an opinion!
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Quote:
Originally posted by danniisupernova:
Well, I'm creating a character (the first time in a long while) for a fic. I'm hesitant about posting it, though I don't think she's an MS because not only does she swear all the time and been raped,she's promiscious and a drug addict. But she is mostly a plot device. Any suggestions?
If you read the Wiki article, it says that many Mary Sues a have tragic past to overcome or have those kinds of huge gaping, but somehow "cool" flaws. So depending on how/why she's written, she might qualify. If she's nothing but a plot device, she's not likely to have much depth, which is irritating even if she's not a Mary Sue. My advice would be to be very, very careful what you do with such a character.
Peace comes from within. Do not seek it without. - Gautama Siddharta
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Quote:
Originally posted by danniisupernova:
Well, I'm creating a character (the first time in a long while) for a fic. I'm hesitant about posting it, though I don't think she's an MS because not only does she swear all the time and been raped,she's promiscious and a drug addict. But she is mostly a plot device. Any suggestions?
Are you being funny? *G*
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Quote:
Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
*is distracted by thought of Simon's ultimate orgasm*
Oh... um... what were we talking about?
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I'm the president. I don't need to listen.
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Oooh, Fanfic talk! My favourite!
I try to be tolerant of Mary Sues. After all the first thing that I do on reading or watching something good is mentally insert myself into the story. But that's purely for my own guilty and self absorbed mental gratification. 'Tis unseemely to do it in public!
___________________
Hissssssssss!
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>I'm definitely not a fan of Mary Sues. Where they come from doesn't matter - if they are there, the most I'll do is skim over a fic.
Ditto for me.
If an OC doesn't capture my attention right away, I don't usually bother with the fic anymore because they usually turn into a MS - unless its an author I KNOW will do justice to an OC.
Similarly, I don't tend to read fic that has new /old 'love interests' for any of the characters, regardless of gender.
But I tend to stick to cannon relationships anyway. Anything else is usually just too disturbing for me to enjoy.
I'm real picky, so it's likely not many out there will share my opinions.
"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."
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Quote:
Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
*is distracted by thought of Simon's ultimate orgasm*
Oh... um... what were we talking about?
*is distracted right along with the hippie*
What was I saying?
"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."
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Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Kaylee-Sue and River-Sue are very common, I think, because the characters already have very very slight Sue-esque traces, in that their flaws have not yet been explored a lot on the show. They're geniuses (each in her way) and pretty. Kaylee is the universally beloved and overprotected sunshine, River is super-tragic, occasionally snarky fighter-psychic girl who carries gruesome secrets. (Hell, it's a miracle Joss managed to pull off her character as three-dimensional in the first place!)
Don't hate me for saying this but I once had a general feeling when considering the 'verse that if Firefly had had its full stock of seven series, River would have died either at the end of series 6 or halfway through series 7 leaving everyone else to pick up the bits. As Joss created her, her flaws break her in terms of serious self-determined plot-driving (in that her character drove the plot of Serenity but she didn't; it was people's desire to use her that did), but there would be an ever increasing risk even in a professionally written series that her powers would turn her into Superwoman, making the whole thing potentially boring. Killing her would work in the same way that killing Wash broke the invulnerability bubble at the end of Serenity, only even more spectacularly, which is another good reason for it to happen.
*holds hand up* I have a confession to make. My first original writing came from self-inserts and other inserted characters. In my defence, I was eight years old at the time. I trust I've grown out of it. I spend more of my time now working out ways for my characters to be less powerful, which is quite interesting in the case of the omniscient one.
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In the exchange of ideas between writer and reader, Mary Sue fic weighs heavily for the writer. They get much more out of writing it than any reader can get out of reading it. As a reader, I'm glad that the author has had that outlet, but I'm not going to bother reading it! A typical Mary Sue ends up being the agent of change for everything, and since I really don't have any interest or investment in the character herself, it makes for a very uninteresting story.
As far as warnings... Mary Sue fic usually makes itself apparent pretty early on - often even in the description. I only have to venture as far as I already need to to gage other make-it-or-break-it factors like poor grammar or characterization.
Regarding cliches... I can like all sorts of cliches as long as they are executed well. Fanfic can be a vast source of poorly executed cliches, but so can other, professional, media.
I don't watch the tv show "NCIS", but I tuned in recently for what I'm guessing was a season finale. It had the tired 'beloved leader with painful past in a coma' cliche as the primary plotline, and, as much as I'm ashamed to admit it, I find that cliche appealing. Well, let me tell you, I thought the execution was awful. I could only think to describe it as bad fan fiction, but on TV.
I guess that's why I find Joss's work so appealing. He manages to take cliches and either turn them on their heads, or transcend them. Because, when it comes down to it, I really do like my cliches.
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Ain't. We. Just.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Eloisa:
Don't hate me for saying this but I once had a general feeling when considering the 'verse that if Firefly had had its full stock of seven series, River would have died either at the end of series 6 or halfway through series 7 leaving everyone else to pick up the bits.
Season 7? Wow, you think far ahead! *G*
Given that much space, I can agree.
There are a lot of aspects of River that leave room for exploration, inherent flaws and an active examination of those.
"Great power comes with great responsibility." The concept of River using and/or abusing her ccapabilities would have come up.
And they could have carved out more beautifully the contrast between her very harmony-oriented personality and the purposes for which she was trained, giving greater poignancy to her inner struggle that's summed up as "Put a bullet to me." in the movie. That's powerful stuff.
But ultimately... you're right. It doesn't get much more pre-emptive than mind-reader, and that only serves so long before you have to add new problems, which only intensifies the victim role, which takes away depth.
Unless... they made her a villain! *G*
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