Debate Over
POSTED BY: dreamtrove
UPDATED: Friday, September 1, 2006 00:38
VIEWED: 4120
PAGE 3 of 8
Quote:Rap, you have GOT to stop taking your cues from right-wing talking heads! Do you KNOW what stem cells are??? Prolly not, so here goes....
I plead ignorance on much of the stem cell issue. Embryonic or otherwise. Me not a bio chemist. But what little I've gleaned from listening to folks who ARE bio chemist and the like, is that 'adult' stem cells are proving to be far more beneficial than those from embryos. To date, the hooplah over e.s.c.'s are primarily theoretical. And that's not me scoffing at the idea. Maybe down the road, much greater benefit can come from e.s.c's, but just not now.
Each cell contains all of the genes necessary to grow a complete human being. Why don't they? Why don't you get eyes growing on your hand and hair growing in your stomach? It's because a large number of genes in each cell are turned off. In fact, most adult cells are not only highly differentiated they have only 6-12 divisions in their future due to the shortening of the telomeres with each division. www.genlink.wustl.edu/teldb/tel.html
So, if that's the case, how do we keep growing new skin, new blood cells etc? It's because adults also have stem cells. But there are a number of issue related to using adult stem cells including the fact that pluripotent cells have nto yet been found. Also, there is
Quote:
evidence that adult stem cells may not have the same capacity to multiply as embryonic stem cells. Finally, adult stem cells may contain more DNA abnormalities—caused by sunlight, toxins, and errors in DNA replication the course of a lifetime.
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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CTS- Okay, ALMOST anything.
As far as Becker's original work, the only thing I can seem to pull up is stuff about silver. Are we talking about the same guy? Because if you have links to his original work, that would be better than just doing a hand-waving reference.
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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One last comment- Do y'all recall cold fusion? Human cloning?
Until this is duplicated in another lab, I'll keep the champagne on ice. If it turns out to be the real thing, I'll be happy to pop a few corks with you all! 
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Signym,
And if I recall reading that Dolly was not in fact a true clone, but a twin, and that the first actual clone was two weeks later, a rat was cloned in costa rica.
I suspect Colloidal silver is not a miracle cure.
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I so hope this is true! I think stem cell research could help a lot of people who are suffering.
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." http://whimsicalnbrainpan.blogspot.com/
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Quote:And where did I disbelieve the mainstream in this instance? Or believe something that is out of the mainstream?
Originally posted by SignyM:
CTS- Okay, ALMOST anything.
Quote:Yeah, the same guy. Becker did do a lot of work with silver. But he never advocated its indiscriminate use. He was always very cautious and used silver (or any of his experimental treatments) only as a last resort when all other traditional treatments have failed.
As far as Becker's original work, the only thing I can seem to pull up is stuff about silver. Are we talking about the same guy? Because if you have links to his original work, that would be better than just doing a hand-waving reference.
http://www.earthpulse.net/Becker.htm
Here is a bibliography of his work. (Scroll down past the top links.) Here is an example of his published research.
Quote:
NeuroRehabilitation 2002;17(1):23-31
Induced dedifferentiation: a possible alternative to embryonic stem cell transplants.
Becker RO.
Department of Orthopedic Surgery, Upstate Medical Center, State University of New York, Syracuse, NY 13210, USA.
Induction of local tissue regeneration in the human would best be accomplished if the patient's own cells at the desired site could be caused to dedifferentiate into the required embryonic stem cells. A system involving the electrical iontophoretic introduction of free silver ions into human wounds for their antibiotic effect has been in clinical use since 1975. In addition to a major antibiotic effect, the technique was found to produce the regeneration of all local tissues, apparently by stimulating dedifferentiation of mature human cells. More recently the use of a newly developed silvered nylon fabric has been found to have similar results without the need for electrical parameters. The results of a preliminary laboratory and clinical study of this material are presented.
PMID: 12016344 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Last time I looked, I didn't know the journal "Neurorehabilitation" was out of the mainstream. Just because the mass media doesn't harp on this line of research doesn't mean it is "alternative." If you do a search in Pub Med, you'll that a number of mainstream journals (such as Nature) have published Becker's work.
Anyway, I'm a little tired of that accusation of supporting a double standard. I like you and Rue, but I do wish you guys wouldn't flame me when I disagree with you. Can't we just carry on a civil conversation about the issues without attacking my integrity? Please?
Can't Take My Gorram Sky
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It is a good thing, and to hell with the naysayers. If this could have solved breast cancer my mother would still be here.
I'm all for it.
If I'm a bitch, then life just got interesting
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Forgive me. It's been busy, I just got some things finished I needed to get done, and the mental fizz is starting to foam out of the bottle.
My first random thought was about the title: 'debate over'. Now, I know what it means, and it's perfectly good colloquial English, but you could read it as "debate over ....." Let's have a debate! BYO topic!
My second random thought was - I'm a clone! What's wrong with cloning? Except, you know, mebee 'one' is the, ahem, failed one.
Third - 'The Arm of the Starfish' (classic sci-fi) sounds like Becker's work. (Robert O Becker - has "The Body Electric: Electromagnetism and the Foundation of Life" for sale at Amazon.)
And then this caught my eye - "Lanza's team let its fertilized eggs grow to the 8- to 10-cell stage. The embryo at that stage is no longer able to divide into twins but the cells can still form any cell or tissue in the body." Actually, a 3 day embryo is in the 8-10 cell stage. Humans can become separate mz twins up to about 12 days, after 12 days they become conjoined mz twins.
So ChrisIsAll - I may have your gottcha. That single cell COULD be the nucleus (so to speak) of a whole 'nother individual ! And then they go and perversely keep it alive but KILL its person-hood, damn them ! Turning it into just another mass of tissue. :croccodiletears:
And now to go home to a nice bottle, OH! I meant glass ... GLASS of wine ...
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Quote:CTS- I did search PubMed. All I found under Becker Robert O was two articles, one of which was in Journal Altern Complement Medicine, the other already cited.
If you do a search in Pub Med, you'll that a number of mainstream journals (such as Nature) have published Becker's work.
I also looked into about a dozen papers that showed up under silver+ stem+ cell to see if it was an active line of research. None of them advocated or studied the use of silver for healing with the exception of ONE paper, which looked at the possible cytotoxic effects of silver-impregnated bandages (cytotoxic for the first day, however burned areas recovered as fast under silver as not). OTOH the use of silver as a TOXIC material was widely discussed.
I also did a google search, and pulled up the same stuff as before. Whatever work Becker did in the 70's didn't make it onto the net. That's why I'm asking for somehting more substantive, 'cause one perr-reviewed article sure isn't much to go on.
I'm very familiar with the many ways that science got it "wrong" from the germ theory of ulcers to continental drift but nobody has duplicated Becker's work. Not a good sign! Also, it's been well-known for decades that some animals (like the starfish that Rue mentioned) are able to re-grow entire limbs. There is a specific mouse (MLR) that can regenerate- perhaps the subject of Becker's study. Even humans can regrow fingertips, The trick was not knowing that it happened but how, and how to induce it in situations where it might not have otherwise occurred.
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Just weighing in here.
I didn't know we were taking this colloidal silver seriously. Colloidal silver is a fruitcake identifier. Like crop circles, no offense. Some far out theories turn out to be true, and much of our scientific knowledge, and history, is a collection of those. But 90% or more aren't so lucky. Sort of like frozen embryoes.
I knew a guy who was a heavy believer in this stuff. I think there's an alex jones of science out there bouncing it around. To me, it's a simple rule: Unless you're certain *why* it works, don't use it. This is why I generally avoid allopathy. Allopaths can almost never tell you why a particular pharmaceutical works, it's almost a faith healing institution. The drugs are created through trial and error with no understanding of the mechanisms involved.
Colloidal metals don't make sense. You're body didn't evolve to us colloidal metals, the metals you take in are almost always trapped in some biological molecule. The lifeforms that make those molecule are generally plants. The simple way to better health is better food. The taking in of food in a natual animal process. A lot of other methods are not. The biggest exception I see is that taking a toxin which kills bacteria, without killing you, is a valid idea, but it would also probably make more sense to do it in food form.
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