Debate Over
POSTED BY: dreamtrove
UPDATED: Friday, September 1, 2006 00:38
VIEWED: 4120
PAGE 2 of 8
Dream - I plead ignorance on much of the stem cell issue. Embryonic or otherwise. Me not a bio chemist. But what little I've gleaned from listening to folks who ARE bio chemist and the like, is that 'adult' stem cells are proving to be far more beneficial than those from embryos. To date, the hooplah over e.s.c.'s are primarily theoretical. And that's not me scoffing at the idea. Maybe down the road, much greater benefit can come from e.s.c's, but just not now. Kinda like how fusion reactors are the goals for solving our energy needs, when all we have today is the technology for fission .
Quote:
Well this is an interesting bit of spin. Clinton's administration said they would fund embryonic stem cell research; the resulting legislation was halted by the Bush administration and later cut down to limit funding.
And FYI Bush is the only President to veto congress' decision to loosen restrictions of funding.
Citizen, you'd better sit down, son. It's you who is spinnin'. Clinton SAID they'd fund ? WOW! What leadership! What vision! What a load of crap! As our beautiful warrior woman once said.. " sayin' ain't doin'! " I stated a simple fact. That Bush was the 1st President to FUND any sort of stem cell research. Bush used his 1st ( and so far only ) veto to NOT spend MORE money on a project he already said he was against! What a relief!
Here's something for you to consider, huckleberry - * Regarding President Bush's veto: 1) expansion of funding was vetoed, not continuation of funding; 2) federal funding, not private funding, was vetoed; 3) only embryonic stem-cell research was affected, not non-embryonic stem-cell research; 4) the toll of human suffering due to dread diseases may be lessened through stem-cell research that does not require destroying one life to treat another.
You've got nothing to debate with, pal. let me do the math here -- nothing into nothing, carry the -- Yep. You got nothin'.
* http://www.clarionledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060820/OPINI
ON02/608200303/1009/OPINION
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:Given that you're already trying to turn this into a flame war this is the last time I will speak to you on this matter UNLESS you show yourself to actually be interested in a debate rather than implying I'm an idiot because I don't agree with you in your next post. Please notice I haven't liberally splashed either my last post nor this one with derogatory nicknames nor attempts at humour at your expense "you got nothin'" very imaginative. Also don't call me son again.
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Citizen, you'd better sit down, son. It's you who is spinnin'. Clinton SAID they'd fund ? WOW! What leadership! What vision! What a load of crap! As our beautiful warrior woman once said.. " sayin' ain't doin'! " I stated a simple fact. That Bush was the 1st President to FUND any sort of stem cell research. Bush used his 1st ( and so far only ) veto to NOT spend MORE money on a project he already said he was against! What a relief!
Here's something for you to consider, huckleberry - * Regarding President Bush's veto: 1) expansion of funding was vetoed, not continuation of funding; 2) federal funding, not private funding, was vetoed; 3) only embryonic stem-cell research was affected, not non-embryonic stem-cell research; 4) the toll of human suffering due to dread diseases may be lessened through stem-cell research that does not require destroying one life to treat another.
You've got nothing to debate with, pal. let me do the math here -- nothing into nothing, carry the -- Yep. You got nothin'.
* http://www.clarionledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060820/OPINI
ON02/608200303/1009/OPINION
Your stating of a simple fact, as you put, without properly quantifying it is the spin. Lie by omission and clouding of the full facts as it were.
It takes time to get things through, Clinton set the ball rolling, then the processes take over, it just so happened that Bush was president when it happened, he didn't want to I'm sure, but had very little choice.
If you'll notice the National Institutes of Health announced it would fund embryonic stem cell research in 2000, still under Clinton’s term, it took time to put together the legislation, until 2001 when Bush was president in fact. Ergo it was Clinton’s administration that enacted the funding, it was an accident of temporality that had Bush in power when it was ready to go through, very much a different situation as to how you'd paint it, yet still the same facts are in evidence, just one of us is excluding some from consideration, one of us is not.
Further proof that things take time to come through:
Congress wanted Bush to loosen restrictions way back in 2001/2, yet it took until 2006 before congress managed to put a vote together.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Ah crap. I posted my response on a concurrent thread that someone else started (Hope for stem cell research). I'll cross-post here.
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It would seem so [to be a good thing]. But I'd hate to BE that embryo from whom they plucked 10% of my cells (1 cell out of the 8-10 cell stage). I mean, do we REALLY know what that would do to the person--ya know if he ever gets to grow up? It is experimenting on a human being without his consent, assuming that the embryo won't be discarded. And if the embryo is never going to get to become a full grown human, why go through all that trouble?
All this stem cell controversy makes me sick. In the 50's through the 70's, a guy named Robert Becker MD was doing some extremely promising research on dedifferentiation of normal cells. Yep...taking a full grown differentiated cell and converting it into a "pluripotent" embryonic-like undifferentiated cell. His lab got shut down in 1981, for who knows why. If he had been able to continue with that line of research, or if anyone else had joined in that line of research, we'd probably be able to create stem cells by now, without involving embryos at all. The technology is there. No one wants to touch it. Instead, they hem and haw about how they can't progress with curing diseases because of the ethical controversies of stem cell research.
Bullshit. Sorry, this topic really, really pisses me off. I have a very good friend paralyzed in a wheelchair. When I think she might be that much closer to walking today if Becker's lab hadn't been shut down, or if someone else had picked up his work, it gets my goat that they use the stem cell controversy as an excuse to not make any progress.
Can't Take My Gorram Sky
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CTTS
Congratulations, you've just invented the incredibly weak argument that the Merck elite can use to help deprive the world of cures for fatal illnesses in exchange for power and profit.
Actually, I'm quite certain it would have no effect on them at all. One of the things that makes stem cells special is that they have no generation loss. It's entirely possible to grow a second set of stem cells for your embryo without harming the outcome, or, for that matter, effecting the outcome at all.
The whole thing is of course a cover, disease and disability has always been more profitable to the medical community then cure.
When Jonas Sauk discovered the polio vaccine, he got 400 angry letters from doctors, all to the affect of "you idiot, you just cured the goldmine, with polio, our funding is gone, our chance of a perpetual treatment jackpot drug are gone."
All of which goes to prove my point that you really have to watch the incentives you set in place, call it social engineering or whatever, but the guiding hand must be there to make sure that you don't make death more profitable than life.
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Just because I'm a nice guy.
Someone else dupe posted this story, I'm reposting that post so it doesn't get lost in the shuffle:
Quote:
MISSTRESSAHARA:
Hope for stem cell research.
"You gonna make biscuits? You gonna make biscuits? You gonna make biscuits?" "No Gir, I'm never making biscuits again" O__O
Scientists Harvest Stem Cells Without Destroying Embryo
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Breakthrough technique might get around moral issues, experts say
By Amanda Gardner, HealthDay Reporter
WEDNESDAY, Aug. 23 (HealthDay News) -- In what could prove to be a medical milestone, researchers have succeeded in generating new lines of human embryonic stem cells without destroying the embryo.
The breakthrough may enable scientists to circumvent the ban on federal funding of stem cell research, paving the way for gains in treating or curing diseases such as diabetes, spinal injury and Alzheimer's disease.
"The whole goal of this is to increase the number of stem cell lines available for federal funding and give the field a badly needed jump-start," said Dr. Robert Lanza, senior author of a paper appearing in the Aug. 24 issue of Nature and medical director of Advanced Cell Technology in Worcester, Mass.
Lanza was cautiously optimistic, although he said the final say on whether this strategy could widen U.S. embryonic stem cell research depends on politicians, not scientists.
"The approach described here does not involve the destruction of an embryo, nor does the biopsied cell ever develop into an embryo at any point. Therefore, we hope this method can be used to increase the number of stem cell lines available for federal funding - and thus give the field a badly needed jump-start," Lanza said. "But I guess we'll have to see what the President and Congress have to say about it all."
The promise of embryonic stem cells lies in their ability to be "pluripotent," and develop into any cell type in the body. Experts envision a future where stem cells might help replace diseased or injured tissue, thereby treating a host of ailments.
However, many object to the destruction of embryos inherent in this research. For that reason, embryonic stem cell research in the United States has been severely restricted since Aug. 9, 2001, when President Bush placed limits on federal funding of the field. As of that date, federal funds could only be used to study stem cell lines derived from embryos that had been already been destroyed before the limit was set.
This has turned out to be fewer lines than originally thought, and even fewer high-quality lines.
And while some state and private money has emerged to fill the gap in research funding, experts say it's not been nearly enough. Most scientists agree that federal resources are needed if any credible research gains are to take place.
So far, scientists have obtained embryonic stem cells by taking groups of cells from early embryos before they implant in the uterus. However, this process involves the destruction of the embryo.
Lanza's new paper improves on research his team did last year. In that study, the Massachusetts group succeeded in cultivating mouse embryonic stem cell lines by removing just one cell from the mouse embryo. The procedure is similar to that used for pre-implantation genetic diagnosis, used to check for genetic disorders during in vitro fertilization (IVF). In this case, the mouse embryos survived.
But then, a roadblock. "We tried to apply that to a human system and found that it does not work," Lanza said. "We had to work out a different technique and initially we weren't sure that it was going to work. It was pretty tough. Eventually it worked like a charm."
Here's how. According to Lanza, the new research involved 16 human embryos left over from IVF.
"We used a single-cell biopsy technique to pluck out one cell when the embryo was at the 8-to-10-cell stage," Lanza explained. This is the same stage used for pre-implantation genetic diagnosis. Excising a cell at thNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Okay,
First, can some tell me how to make the forum not be 2000 pixels wide?
Next, Citizen. Chill. Clinton sucks, Bush sucks, neither one of them are worth a minute of your time defending.
Auraptor,
I took two years of concentrated biochem and a year of concentrated chem during my history studies (which took me many years, I was an unfocused student.) Anyway, I know the subject reasonably well.
Adult stem cell tech has been allowed to develop, this is why it has had more successes, but embryonic stem cells will be able to treat different types of conditions, if allowed to develop, such as my sisters chimeric bon disorder (which means some of her bones came from a different embryo, are genetically different from her, and never took.) So it's an embryonic stem cell issue. Paralysis is often one, organ failures, blood diseases, spinal induries, the list goes on, but all of this misses the point.
The stem cell centers are lacking funding because opposition remains, this discovery should remove that opposition. Arlen Specter said he thought he could drum up enough votes by January to override a veto, now maybe he won't have to, or if he does, this will help.
I responded by buying some stock, I'm not a guy with a lot of cash, but it doesn't seem like a dumb investment. STEM, ASTM, GERN are the major companies in the industry, VIAC is a new entry, but they still have issues.
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CTS- It's NOT THAT EASY to make pluripotent cells from differentiated cells. In fact, it's darn near impossible, which is why the whole fuss with Dolly (the cloned sheep- I'm sure you remember her). It took over 600 tries before they got to Dolly.
And as far as Becker is concerned, I looked him up: he believes colloidal silver can cure everything. So, just to see if there was anything to that line of tought, I went to Pub Med and searched on silver stem cells. What I got out of that search is that silver is toxic and that silver nanoparticles especially so. You may recall back in the old days they used to give newborns silver nitrate eyedrops to kill possible STD germs on the eyeballs?
It seems to me that, as Rue said, you believe anything that's out of the mainstream and disbelieve anything that's in the mainstream.
---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
CTS- It's NOT THAT EASY to make pluripotent cells from differentiated cells.
Never said it was easy. By 1981, Becker was able to dedifferentiate cells in amphibians and even rats (the first mammals). But if Becker's work had been continued, we'd have 25 more years of research that could have very well gotten somewhere with humans.
Quote:He never said any such thing. If you want to hear what he said about silver, look up his papers or read his books.
And as far as Becker is concerned, I looked him up: he believes colloidal silver can cure everything.
Quote:Uh huh. ANYTHING. Prove it.
It seems to me that, as Rue said, you believe anything that's out of the mainstream and disbelieve anything that's in the mainstream.
Can't Take My Gorram Sky
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Quote:Huh?
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Congratulations, you've just invented the incredibly weak argument that the Merck elite can use to help deprive the world of cures for fatal illnesses in exchange for power and profit.
And you think they need MY argument to deprive the world? Wow. Is there a reward for such ingenuity?
Can't Take My Gorram Sky
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Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Okay,
First, can some tell me how to make the forum not be 2000 pixels wide?
Split the url in your first post. Depending on your browser, FFFn doesn't do word-wrap for URLs.
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