RE:
POSTED BY: fredgiblet
UPDATED: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 14:27
VIEWED: 4685
PAGE 4 of 6
I keep noticing this phrase: the PROS and CONS.
That would be progressives and neo-cons (we put the con in con-servative!). 
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Finn,
You were doing so well ! I was literally just thinking you'd come back to firefly a much improved Finn. What happened ?? !!
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Are you saying you agree with me or you don't agree with me?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Finn:
What I did say is that what we are doing in the Middle East is categorically not genocide.
Keep telling yourself that. I'm sure it dulls the pain. No, I'm actually not just trying to be an ass, even if that was a snide remark, I think we're at the very least very close to that line. I think when Clinton cut off food and medical supplies, we crossed that line. Thank God, (or the 2000 election?) that we've pulled back from that stance, but I think this is right on the edge of that definition:
Quote:
READ ME: (from wikipedia)
Genocide is defined by the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG) Article 2 as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such: Killing members of the group; Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; and forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
Are we trying to debilitate their society to prevent them from competing? Not on a public policy or military command level, but somewhere in the back room decision making? - yes, sure, someone here and in israel definitely has that agenda. Maybe multiple someones.
Are we trying to lower the islamic birth rate? Sure, but then our govt. has been trying to lower our birth rate for some time (anyone ever noticed this? virtually all of the PC platforms can be translated into: "no more babies")
Are we trying to exterminate the whole arab race? No, of course not, I don't think anyone believes that, except maybe the arabs. But it can be genocide by the above definition very long before that. I think people would say the US had a genocidal stance towards blacks when we had slavery, and towards indians when we wanted their land. Early Americans weren't trying to literally kill every Indian (ok, some were) but to displace them from the land. It was still genocide. Israel has the same genocidal stance towards palestinians.
Finn,
And this is a serious point.
Denial does not make it go away. I'm sure on the road to being a hardened criminal, there's a very long line of denials which take place. I'm not a thief, I'm disadvantaged, society owes me this - I'm not a killer, I just drove the car. Pretty soon it's Where is it written that I am a bad guy?
We crossed the line between right and wrong some time ago and we kept barrelling along like a juggernaut. Torture is public policy. We keep people in cages, we kill children, and do so intentionally. (sure, they're combatants) But an endless rationalization doesn't get you out of the hole. We're becoming like our enemies, or worse. We need to seriously recoil. We need to pull back to sanity, and take a serious long hard look at ourselves. Who are we? Are we Nietzsche's machiavellian army who attacks and conquers devoid of moral conscience simply because we have the firepower to do so? At least to some extent we must be, but to what extent? Is there merit in the idea, or will the old world order be lost for ever and replaced with total chaos surrounding the collapse of the complete untennable nightmare one world state?
I think there's a whole bunch of thinking that no one did ahead of time, and now we are here, and we should stop and think.
Don't just shake it off. Stop and think.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
If that is the definition of Genocide. I see nothing wrong with doing it. Killing the members of certain terrorist groups could be viewed by some as genocide. I'm okay with it.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:Thank you, Dreamtrove. I think you’ve made my case.
Originally posted by dreamtrove:Quote:Are we trying to debilitate their society to prevent them from competing? Not on a public policy or military command level, but somewhere in the back room decision making? - yes, sure, someone here and in israel definitely has that agenda. Maybe multiple someones.
READ ME: (from wikipedia)
Genocide is defined by the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG) Article 2 as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such: Killing members of the group; Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; and forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by USBrowncoat:
If that is the definition of Genocide. I see nothing wrong with doing it. Killing the members of certain terrorist groups could be viewed by some as genocide. I'm okay with it.
Alright someone who believes in fucking Genocide...My kind of guy...You are talking to a bunch of arrogent cyber shit eaters...That makes you one fuckface!!!
chris eatsshitisall
Hey chris nice e-mail...Love how you got all "New York on me" What a fuckin joke..I live in New York tough guy..Let me know we can meet for drinks...you ball sack.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:Quote:
Originally posted by USBrowncoat:
If that is the definition of Genocide. I see nothing wrong with doing it. Killing the members of certain terrorist groups could be viewed by some as genocide. I'm okay with it.
Alright someone who believes in fucking Genocide...My kind of guy...You are talking to a bunch of arrogent cyber shit eaters...That makes you one fuckface!!!
chris eatsshitisall
Hey chris nice e-mail...Love how you got all "New York on me" What a fuckin joke..I live in New York tough guy..Let me know we can meet for drinks...you ball sack.
I withdraw my genocide post, so I will not be viewed as being aligned with lunatics. Glad I am not you "Chris"! This is the first time I have seen someone challenged to a fight online. Rather comical. Kaneman you are a troll. A very vulgar one at that. There are children that post on these boards. That makes you repulsive. In the future "ignored" you will be. Thank you for the famous browncoat welcome. *middle finger held high*
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:For the love of...
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Nope. Never said anything remotely close to that. What I did say is that what we are doing in the Middle East is categorically not genocide. And that is a true statement. Why didn’t “this crap” end there?
Look, the very simple concept that I'm trying to impart which you keep missing is that it wasn't long ago that we were being pretty genocidal to the peoples of the Middle East, and these genocidal actions were still occurring in the last one hundred years. People are probably still alive that hold them in living memory, so whether we've learnt from our mistakes now is pretty irrelevant to the people of the Middle East.
One minute we're dropping bombs on them to fulfil our imperialist machinations and the next we're telling them we've changed and the bombs are dropping for their own good.
Then you turn around and make overtures to the effect of "what they think doesn't matter". Dream may have misused the word Genocide but it is far from irrelevant as you'd like to paint it.
And frankly the only thing that ‘tips the scales’ to what we tend to be doing all over the Middle East at the moment away from Genocide at the moment is merely intent.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:No. I’ve never made any such overture. What I’ve said about genocide was factually correct, and that some people in the Middle East may have a different perception, doesn’t change what is. If you’re interrogating someone whom you think believes that you’re going to kill him, but you, in fact, have no intention to do so, do you tell him that you’re going to kill him because that’s what you think he believes, or do you tell him the truth? Evidently, you think that we should lie about our intent, because that’s what you believe some in the Middle East want to here. But I don’t think so. And neither does Dreamtrove. His use of genocide has nothing to do with preception. Dreamtrove is using untrue inflammatory language because he disagrees with the war in Iraq or actually believes this stuff, either way, he’s factually wrong, and you’re justifying it. You could just as easily disagree with the war in Iraq or hold a general anti-war sentiment and still tell Dreamtrove that he is over the top (or at least not throw a fit when I do), but you don’t, and it undermines your whole position.
Originally posted by citizen:
Then you turn around and make overtures to the effect of "what they think doesn't matter". Dream may have misused the word Genocide but it is far from irrelevant as you'd like to paint it.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME