There is a God, or There is no god the next generation
POSTED BY: citizen
UPDATED: Friday, August 25, 2006 02:57
VIEWED: 14701
PAGE 5 of 11
Quote:
Originally posted by antimason:
first of all, im not out to convert those who disbelieve, that is a personal choice and i respect that; i do think its hypocritical to say that its ok to disagree as long as someone elses beliefs arent being forced up on you...when evolution is the sole curriculum taught in America. God forbid they teach an alternative theory to life, besides that we live and die and theres nothing more to it. i guess its only offensive when there are positive ethical and hopefull messages that are teached aswell
gods, angels, aliens, or whatever term you want to use for super-human beings does not create a contradiction to the bible. there is only one God, creator of the universe, but many accounts of beings perceived as (g)ods, which litter ancient cultures; even the flood story is nearly universal. the mainstream historical view is that Humans evolved from nothing, and after millions of years arrived at where we are today, solely out of our own ingenuity. yet that is contrary to what all of our ancestors have recorded, when they say that they were visited by "gods"
christianity is based on the belief that there is one, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent being, which exists beyond our reality, like a main frame computer.
can you prove otherwise? can we disprove that any supernatural entity can exist? and i suppose we should just throw out every recorded incident of apparitions, ghosts, evp's, or any thing else un-explained by science presently?
this is the problem, you deny whatever doesnt fit into your strictly physical darwinian view; including the accounts of Jesus, which have been as proven as reletively possible
we could argue about the semantics of this all day..and no one will win, because at the end of the day, there is noscientific evidence which supports either theory conclusively.
the difference is, im an not so arrogant as to believe that humans are the pinnacle of developement and uniqueness in the universe.
i am no so close minded as to deny that a greater consciousness might be at work in the universe.
and ultimately, i dont disregard everything my ancestors recorded as physical events, which actually occured...especially when we are just now rediscovering what the ancients already knew about the universe
you have to deny a greater amount of information to be an athiest, than you do to be a creationist
Evolution is the only scientifically proven theory about how life got to where it is today. Every fact we have supports it, nothing is out of place. We don't have fossil rabbits in the Precambrian. So why teach something that has no evidence? Now, i wouldn't mind if you had it in an elective class on religion, but it shouldn't be forced on those who don't want to learn something for which there is no evidence.
I don't say it isn't possible that there are super-beings; i simply say they can't be supernatural. There is no God in the classical sense. Just much more advanced species than us. Nothing supernatural exists, how could it? There might be beings who live in other universes, or in 11-dimensional space-time. They would be considered god-like. But they aren't outside of the nature, they aren't outside the multi-verse.
Apparitions and ghosts are people's imagination. People want to believe they exist so they see them. I have never seen a ghost. Why? Because i don't think they exist. The human brain is very good at picking out patterns where there isn't one. So when someone sees something that by chance appears semi-human-esque; they say "GHOST!!!".
As to EVPs, those are caused by random noise and the same phenomenon of picking out patterns in random noise. I don't think you can point me to an EVP that would have a computer analysis be able to link it to someone who is dead and who's vocal patterns were recorded. You can't show me one of someone who i also have a voice of. Or maybe they are the sounds of some noise in the room. My point is you don't have conclusive evidence. You can't show me conlusive
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Quote:
Originally posted by nanite1018:
Evolution is the only scientifically proven theory about how life got to where it is today. Every fact we have supports it, nothing is out of place. We don't have fossil rabbits in the Precambrian. So why teach something that has no evidence? Now, i wouldn't mind if you had it in an elective class on religion, but it shouldn't be forced on those who don't want to learn something for which there is no evidence.
Very well said. It irritates me to no end that so many religious folks can't see the simple logic of the situation. If there is no evidence, don't teach it in a science classroom. If you feel you MUST teach it, do so in an elective class so people can chose whether or not they want to have theology rammed down their throats.
Quote:
I don't say it isn't possible that there are super-beings; i simply say they can't be supernatural. There is no God in the classical sense. Just much more advanced species than us. Nothing supernatural exists, how could it? There might be beings who live in other universes, or in 11-dimensional space-time. They would be considered god-like. But they aren't outside of the nature, they aren't outside the multi-verse.
Exactly. Nothing is supernatural, just strange.
You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.
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Quote:
Originally posted by antimason:
this is the problem, you deny whatever doesnt fit into your strictly physical darwinian view; including the accounts of Jesus, which have been as proven as reletively possible
Perhaps you would be so kind as to show us this proof? Because, the last time I checked, there was not only no proof, but zero evidence at all.
Quote:
we could argue about the semantics of this all day..and no one will win, because at the end of the day, there is no scientific evidence which supports either theory conclusively.
True, there is no proof of evolution, because it hasn't been studied long enough to see major changes in species coinciding with environmental changes. There is, however a huge amount of evidence for evolution, making it very convincing, and absolutely none for creationism. Dont try to claim the theories are equal, 'cause they're not.
Quote:
you have to deny a greater amount of information to be an athiest, than you do to be a creationist
So what? Information is not synonimous with fact. Just 'cause we filter out the BS doesn't discount atheism. In fact, the fact that christians dont seem to send any information through a BS filter before believing it is the only real barrier between the two beliefs. If more people analyzed what they believed and asked the question "does this make sense?", I'd be willing to bet there would be a helluva lot more atheists out there.
You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.
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Quote:Citizen, you ever think we were put on this earth by a higher power to drive each other crazy in the RWED forum?
Originally posted by citizen:
Am I the only one around these boards who understands the concept of an analogy?
The idea I was trying to impart was that while you say that religion is counterproductive it may be for you, not necessarily for others, and that your personal experiences may not be replicated for everyone or even the majority.
What I was trying to say is that some people may be able to create a moral code, their own faith and spirituality etc without any help, but just as some gifted people don't need teachers to learn, most do. And just like teachers and schools some are good some are adequate and some are bad. In fact I was actually paying you a compliment.
I appreciate your analogies. It's just when you present your analogies as if paraphrasing my ideas that I get cranky. Instead of telling me what my argument means, you could bring up your analogy as something new and entirely citizen-generated: "What you're saying about religion, HK, reminds me of a larger argument to do with teachers..." Then I could appreciate your idea without having to gum up the conversation with "but I didn't say anything about teachers! Blah, blah, blah."
I don't quite agree that some people need spiritual teachers and some people do not. Not fundamentally. As I understand these matters, spiritual decisions are profoundly personal. For everybody. It is profoundly unhealthy to defer to anyone about matters of spirit because to do so interferes directly with our ability to percieve spiritual reality in the first place.
That's really the heart of the matter: It is profoundly unhealthy to defer to anyone about matters of spirit because to do so interferes directly with our ability to percieve spiritual reality in the first place.
Our spirituality and our uniqueness are inseparable. To let someone else tell us what is true or false spiritually is like letting someone else tell us who to fall in love with or what our favorite color should be.
That said, I have had spiritual mentors in my life. But these have been people I have recognized as being further along on a path I was already on. That's how I was able to trust them. When the student is ready the teacher shall appear type o' deal.
So perhaps you say, "But what if you're not on a path yet?" Well, then, you knock around, trying this and that, take some wrong turns, listen to the wrong people for too long and then you wake up. You say to yourself, "Hey, that guy doesn't make any sense! Whereas, that gal I brushed off a few months ago, is making more and more sense the more I think about it. Now, what was her name again?"
That's really the issue for me. It comes down to answering the question, "Why do we trust?" If we trust because we were told to, then I say we don't really trust, we submit. We can't really trust until we have an inkling of who we really are.
Quote:
The implication of the statement whether that is what you meant or not is that that information is not important to us in our daily lives, which of course it is, whether we benefit directly or indirectly from that knowledge seems irrelevant to me.
And you are quite right. Well said. I won't quibble anymore.
Quote:Couple things: one, I'm kind of in a weird space with these issues. I have a lot of sympathy for the atheists because I find so much religiosity to be dangerous nonsense. At the same time, I'm not anyone's idea of a scientific materialist. I see dead people--and fairies and angels and maybe a couple aliens even (can't be sure, it was dark).
I do find it curious that you *seem* quick to dismiss the idea that religion can be good for some people, given your other postings I’d of thought you would be the last person to do something like that, am I misunderstanding your intent?
Secondly, in the last five years, and more and more each day, I have found myself becoming m
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Quote:
in other words, we have such an incredible abundance of life on our planet, literally the mother load..just by random chance,
Just by chance?!
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/geo_timeline.html
http://www.biocrawler.com/encyclopedia/Evolutionary_timeline
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Go to http://richlabonte.net/tvvote/ and vote Firefly!
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to my understanding, Darwin cant prove macroevolution exists, because no fossil evidence has been recovered. http://www.trueauthority.com/cvse/micromacro.htm
heres one such link.
are you saying you cant prove a murder case by using eye witness accounts? so what exactly is the Bible, and the numerous third person accounts of a historical Jesus, and the miracles he performed? as is well known, the apostle Paul witnessed Jesus before and after his ressurection, which is what converted him from a persecutor to one of the greatest believers! it is not hard to prove that Jesus existed, and died on the cross..or that hundreds of people witnessed his ressurection, to the extent that they were murdered and pursued ruthlessly by the Romans for their beliefs. would you die for darwinism, or especially something you couldnt prove even happened?
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Antimason,
Haven't y'all been over and over this ground a hundred times? Eye witnesses of the paranormal are routinely dismissed out of hand. And in our present scientific materialistic context, Jesus and God are every bit as paranormal as Big Foot and the Loch Ness Monster.
How's this proof of non-human intelligence:
Huge patterns like this appear around the world apparently within the space of a few minutes. The plants are all bent at right angles without being broken or harmed in any way, even growing taller and healthier than the surrounding plants. Thousands of these things have appeared for decades and the mainstream culture utterly ignores them.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Quote:I thought that's what I did when I said "it almost seems like"?
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
I appreciate your analogies. It's just when you present your analogies as if paraphrasing my ideas that I get cranky. Instead of telling me what my argument means, you could bring up your analogy as something new and entirely citizen-generated: "What you're saying about religion, HK, reminds me of a larger argument to do with teachers..." Then I could appreciate your idea without having to gum up the conversation with "but I didn't say anything about teachers! Blah, blah, blah."
Quote:I'm not sure I agree, I mean the same argument can be made for teaching, it is an individual process and some people can take this all the way and do it all alone where as other people can't, but any good teacher will tell you that every student is different. Some people need more help than others I think.
I don't quite agree that some people need spiritual teachers and some people do not. Not fundamentally. As I understand these matters, spiritual decisions are profoundly personal. For everybody. It is profoundly unhealthy to defer to anyone about matters of spirit because to do so interferes directly with our ability to percieve spiritual reality in the first place.
I see your sentiment, but not everyone can be a monk, and surely an individual like a monk or a priest who devotes their life to the understanding of these matters will have something to teach those of us who don't have the time or even the inclination to devote that sort of time to those pursuits? Would they not be able to help us, could they not have gained some insight that we may not be able to gain simply because they devote their entire life to these issues where as we do not?
Quote:Well the three Abrahamic religions trace their routes back to the cult of a Canaanite war god, so it's hardly surprising to me that they all share a certain darkness. But they aren't the only religions in the world, Buddhism is a religion for instance, I'm not sure we can condemn religion on the example of the Abrahamic.
Secondly, in the last five years, and more and more each day, I have found myself becoming more and more convinced that Christianity is really, fundamentally effed up. When people go on and on about the evil of Islam and the Koran, I see the very same principles at the heart of Christianity and the Bible. Sure Jesus was an alright dude, but my favorite sayings of Jesus aren't even in the Bible! So I'm more willing than ever to say of the Christian Project, "Shut it all down! Next!"
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Quote:The problem is that there is as much information, evidence whatever for Islam, Juadaism, Hinduism etc, which eye witness accounts are the good ones that we should listen to?
Originally posted by antimason:
are you saying you cant prove a murder case by using eye witness accounts? so what exactly is the Bible, and the numerous third person accounts of a historical Jesus, and the miracles he performed? as is well known, the apostle Paul witnessed Jesus before and after his ressurection, which is what converted him from a persecutor to one of the greatest believers! it is not hard to prove that Jesus existed, and died on the cross..or that hundreds of people witnessed his ressurection, to the extent that they were murdered and pursued ruthlessly by the Romans for their beliefs. would you die for darwinism, or especially something you couldnt prove even happened?
Furthermore there is more evidence for evolution than there is for any religion, that is why evolution is a scientific theory and religions require faith.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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did you guys know Hitler was buddhist?..alright, but what if he claimed he was? you would laugh in my face, because his actions clearly contradict any ethical beliefs of buddhism..am i right?
the KKK claimed to be a Christian group too; even while they dressed in occultic robes, burned crosses, and alienated and murdered blacks and jews.
if the #1 commandment according to Jesus(God manifest) was "love your neighbor as yourself. for love does no harm", how can you truly claim their actions to be Christian? is not the saying "actions speak louder than words?"
i have tried to prove many times, aswell as others, that Bush is a known skull and bones member, and that the agenda he represents is anti-Christian, that their motives are divisive and oppressive; and that this war in Iraq is a front for a broader goal of global governance. nothing about any of that is Christian!
i would argue that the Abrahamic religions are under the most attack from these subversive entities, because of their occult nature, it is their goal to pervert our messages and turn us against eachother. i think that the submissive nature of our beliefs leaves us more vulnerable to the "Bushs" or the "OBLs" of the world, who use it as a political tool.
someone who does not follow Jesus' commands is not a real believer. theres plenty of people who just claim to be christian because they havent thought or dont care about it either way! but for the rest of us, theres always the occasional time that we slip up and loose your temper, or look at some porno, laugh at a dirty joke, or just flat out do something dumb, but theres always a lesson involved, and you grow from it. those are reletively minor, avg occurences.
but when you decieve and mislead people, when you rob it an entire nation of its wealth, fabricate its history and corrupt its youth, when you perform acts of war in the name of God, and you steal away the working peoples freedoms for profit and control; those arent just minor offenses. and those people will be judged when the Jesus does return, and God pays back the world for its evils.
i am not perfect, and i dont claim to be..i pray for forgiveness when i do slip, but the rest of the time im on my best behavior. so what kind of people do these things; completely driven by wealth and greed and control? not true Christians!
and heres the hypocracy: those people, do such things out of their own free will, just as you free thinking athiests and agnostics do! just as we Christians act of our own free will...but it doesnt come through a doctrine of love and forgiveness. i have a standard i know not to deviate from, since i believe life is a test, and i am expected to be Gods representative on earth. Hitler, Stalin, Caligula, name your crazy deviant.. tell me they share my beliefs?
what standards do these people hold to? and can you say the world and its elitist power infrastructure is an accurate reflection of Christian ideals?
i just dont see how murderers and lyers prove Christianity and God dont exist..?
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