There is a God, or There is no god the next generation

POSTED BY: citizen
UPDATED: Friday, August 25, 2006 02:57
VIEWED: 14701
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i think Christians need to study thoroughly their faith, and seek answeres to questions they have, because this would prevent this stereotype about shallow, ignorant or indifferent believers. part of being a faithful disciple is being able to justify and defend your beliefs to skeptics, who would otherwise deny its importance

actually, the biggest threat facing the world is the complacency of the American Christian. we have been taken by the lie that the establishment "Christians" in office have propogated, about the mission of America to defeat these "evil Islamic fascists", and have lost site of the reality that our own system is the evil fascist organisation.

i realized lately there are 2 ultimate schools of thought regarding this coming NWO scenario, and it becomes two sets of Christians:
-those who believe the government, and the official story about 9/11;
- and those who dont

the Christians who believe the 9/11 lie havent looked into the occult conspiracy taking place to bring America online as the prophesied Mystery Babylon, the great harlot who sits on many waters. instead some Christians believe America is not mentioned in prophecy at all, but also think we are at the end of the age. if we are the current superpower, what does that imply?

these Christians, although their motives appear pure(democracy and freedom), they fail to make accurate connections to the real world. they are oblivious to the occult, therefore they fail to accurately recognize prophecy. how can you seek to understand the rise of antiChrist then, if you do not seek the circumstances leading up to it; or do they at all?. our government is striving towards bringing upon the final kingdom of the Beast, and many Christians are supporting the establishments motives, unbeknownst to them!

these i believe will be the elect believers who are decieved in the end times because they missed the signs of the occult forces at work in the world; and adopted heretical philosphies opposing to Gods plan

America was founded by secret societies, such as the Freemasons, and no one will deny that; only Masonic and Satanic symbolism are identical. if you believe in God, what kind of signs do you need that Satan is at work in the world?

we have an incredible dichotomy between our beliefs, and our actions; we are hypocritical, and selfish, and for being the most affluent super power in history, we have completely negated our responsibilities to represent Gods will on earth and have become literally the great prostitute. we have such obligation, because we are the most wealthy Christian nation, to expose the Satanic heresies which threaten Gods wrath upon us; and yet we find ourselves provoking it! we are Mystery Babylon of Revelation 17/18!

and this current war on terror will give rise to the system of Antichrist, which will be a totalitarian, fascist global government control grid. the Patriot act, Homeland Security, Fema, CIA, NSA, they will continue to undermine the constitution until political dissidents can be classified as terrorists and sent to concentration camps.

i realize this sounds dramatic, but for the Christians out there, it is crucial that you get on board

here is a great link to get caught up on this theory, i recommend you do so, even if you are not a Christian, so that you know the truth about what is to befall us all
http://www.the-tribulation-network.com/denemcgriff/in_search_of_babylo
n_intro.htm

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Evidence is required to believe in something. if someone has evidence that they can show me or tell me that supports a higher power, bring it on. But i will probably be able to show you how it fits science remarkably well and doesn't require a higher power.

And Citizen; i realise that science doesn't provide a moral code (although you could make a case that it could, i won't right here, unless you want me to). But simple logic dictates that you don't want to live in a world where people rape, murder, or steal so you don't do those things. Basically, the Golden Rule is pretty much followed, and it makes sense logically. Of course, utilitarianism works also, and that is as scientific as it gets in terms of ethics. Well, as logical as it gets, not as scientific.

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one form of evidence is eye witness accounts right?

why does the Bible not qualify as evidence? the OT is constantly being proven archeologically to be historically accurate, and both the old and new testaments provide equal-if not greater eye witness testimony then most outside sources

we have verifiable second hand accounts of Jesus'healings and other miracles, recorded by early Jews of the pharasiac sect, who opposed Jesus, such as Josephus. and we have Roman historical accounts such as Tacitus' who verify Jesus beating and death.
http://www.carm.org/bible/extrabiblical_accounts.htm

Paul, one of Jesus' most relentless persecutors, became one of the most cherished apostles after he witnesses the ressurected Jesus, 3 days later. life after death, would that not be considered reality defying?

and theres other stuff, but i mean..this is what we have to work with. what do you want from these people, it was 2000 years ago!..and the OT goes even farther back. its not like they had pen and paper lying around to record things with. but reletive to other religions, atleast the gospel of Jesus was written within his lifetime.

no one really likes to take into consideration the nature of our ancestors and their customs. traditions were mainly oral, for many thousands of years; so they knew how to retain practices. but the Jews were meticulous in documenting their belief in Yahweh as creator God aswell, which singled them apart from the polytheistic religions.

this is considered evidence i thought. we have numerous prophecies which have literally been fullfilled, you can do a search on that, most recently with Isreal becoming a nation again after 2500 years, which happened in 1948. who could have predicted that they would even be around, in any form, after 4000 years?

and we have prophecies which are soon to be fullfilled, such as the rebuilding of the Jewish temple mount, the mark of the beast, the antichrist, the false profit, and mystery bablon etc. if you accept that the NWO agenda is real, and that the 9/11 conspiracies are true, suddenly the prophecies regarding the tribulation become a lot more comprehendable. but it takes the time to research

then you will know first hand whether there is a God or not, because you will have seen with your own eyes the fullfillment of prophecy.

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At the end of the day I was talking about faith and spirituality fulfilling a part of our lives wholly different to scientific understanding.

People seem to think it's silly to believe in something that can't be scientifically proven, that proof is required for faith. Nothing, quite frankly, can be further from the truth. I think as beings we tend to NEED faith, perhaps that doesn't hold for all but I can't off hand point to anyone and say they don't have faith in something.

Proof utterly destroys faith; if there was proof of god we wouldn't need faith, which diminishes the experience. Like the Babel fish argument from The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, an animal as useful as the Babel fish proves the existence of god, which precludes faith and without faith god cannot exist...

Saying "you have to have proof to believe" is making religion and spirituality a science, which is just as bad as making science a religion. Both should and do fill very different roles in our lives and by holding one to the standards of the other we're missing the point entirely.

Science attempts to explain the physical world, and in that capacity it does rather well, but there's more to life than the physical world and materialism, and this is where a whole slew of things including faith, religion and spirituality come in.

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Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Plenty of influence, all of it bad. If some particular article of faith from this or that religion strikes my fancy, rings true, then I might appropriate the terminology, but I do my best to stay away from belief in general--I'd rather stick to what I know and what seems likely based upon previous experience. I don't need absolute proof of a thing to accept it, but I don't let myself get too attached either.

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Are you sure? We've spoken on subjects before where your responses required some component of belief.

Some people don't need help to learn, some people need teachers, and this seems like an argument of some minority saying teachers aren't necessary. Sure religions tend to fall prey to the old Human desire for power and control, but when it all comes together a priest is a teacher and should be pointing the way, not leading it.

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Hey citizen, I think you might have to run this one by me again, I'm a li'l confused as to your meanin'. I find organized religion enormously repressive of emotions, sexuality, aggression, heterodox thinking, the list goes on and on. Tends to make me think that a lot of people have acquired a taste for repression, not that the religion isn't really repressing them just because it comforts them.

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Are you really saying that those who confess to be comforted by religion, spirituality or even faith really just have a 'hard on' for being repressed?

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do you think it's important for someone who uses a computer to know how it works? Just as the proper functioning of a democracy demands an informed electorate, does the proper functioning of a technologicaly society demand informed users? Do you think I'm giving up important power if I don't understand modern technology? I'm curious.

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No, but holding the knowledge yourself and it affecting your daily life are two very different things. Without the knowledge of the electron and its properties and behaviours the electronic computer could not have been designed and built, thus whenever you use a computer your life is being affected by the knowledge of the electron, whether you yourself hold that knowledge is irrelevant.

If a miracle cancer drug was invented tomorrow and used to treat your cancer it has deeply affected your life, understanding how it works really isn't required for this.

If we transplanted Neanderthals to the 21st century they wouldn't understand any of our modern technology, but I can't see the argument that they wouldn't be affected by it.

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More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
http:

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Antimason,

I think there are christian groups which do that, get serious about their christianity, but mindless masses grow to larger numbers and elect moronic representatives.

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I shall venture a few questions here.

1. If there is no God who created all, then what happens to these fact packed minds of great knowledge and the lowly uneducated when the body dies?

2. If there are no absolute truths , then what keeps us from flying apart at the sub atomic level?

3. Why is it a person needs more faith and reasoning to believe there is NO God?

I will try to read all that is posted to answer these questions, but please remember I only have a limited amount of time here and I aint gotts but a piece of edumacation.



I've been through the system.
It don't work.

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Originally posted by DukKati:
1. If there is no God who created all, then what happens to these fact packed minds of great knowledge and the lowly uneducated when the body dies?

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Well that's a fair question. Not even arbent believers of christianity can answer that one, they believe you either go to heaven or to hell, or purgatory(but christians can't decide on this point) depending on the denomination but they don't know. What's Hell/Heaven/Purgatory really like? Don't know that either.

You can't ask a question that is answerable by anyone then assumes it proves anything when it isn't answered.

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2. If there are no absolute truths , then what keeps us from flying apart at the sub atomic level?

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Erm, the strong binding force, which isn't a 'Truth'.

If there is a god how come purple rasberries?

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3. Why is it a person needs more faith and reasoning to believe there is NO God?

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Because it doesn't.

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More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Originally posted by DukKati:
I shall venture a few questions here.

1. If there is no God who created all, then what happens to these fact packed minds of great knowledge and the lowly uneducated when the body dies?

2. If there are no absolute truths , then what keeps us from flying apart at the sub atomic level?

3. Why is it a person needs more faith and reasoning to believe there is NO God?

I will try to read all that is posted to answer these questions, but please remember I only have a limited amount of time here and I aint gotts but a piece of edumacation.



I've been through the system.
It don't work.

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Um... they die? Pretty easy. They no longer exist. The information content degrades due to decay from lack of oxygen (natural decay of the brain after death). So the brain can no longer function even if it gets oxygen again. At that point the person is dead, although some of the information content is probably still there and retrievable (if we had nanotechnology or something) and if we did have nanotech we might still be able to repair the damage, in a few hours it would become totally impossible to repair the damage no matter what, in which case the person is irretrievably gone.

There are absolute truths in a sense, the laws of physics. Although those might change due to the natural quantum uncertainty dictated by them, that kind of transition is extremely unlikely and isn't expected to occur for a googol years (10^100 years). So that's what keeps us from flying apart at the subatomic level, the laws of physics. But those might be arbitrarily selected when the universe was created (which may have occurred when a black hole was formed in another universe). There may be an infinite or near-infinite number of universes, in which case it's just pure luck that the laws of physics can support life (the weak anthropic principle basically, the universe is how it is because if it were much different, we couldn't be here to ask the question).

I don't think that is the case. You just have to be mildly skeptical and require real hard evidence, beyond word of mouth which isn't good at all in determining objective truth, we have the strange ability to change what happened and warp it to fit our perceptions and inclinations in our own memory and when we tell it to others (oral traditions aren't very reliable). Like Russell's teapot, you don't believe there's a teapot in orbit between Earth and Mars, because you can't see it and have no reason to think it's there, other than people's say-so; and they can't do anything but point at other people's say-so as evidence.

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Originally posted by citizen:
Are you sure? We've spoken on subjects before where your responses required some component of belief.

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Naw, citizen, actually no. Here's how it is. I've had psychic experiences. I've gotten information by some means other than the official 5 senses. This information is still what I would call "sensory" and every bit as reliable (and unreliable) as sight or hearing or touch or smell or taste.

There is absolutely no reason for anyone to credit my experiences as real unless they've had similar experiences or unless they find me to be a credible witness. I sure as heck don't want anyone to put their faith in me.

You may believe that you need faith in a higher power in order to say there is one. I have heard this trans-personal awareness speak. This awareness has told me things which have later panned out. I therefore have come to rely on this kind of information.

I understand the intuition to be a kind of sense. In modern humans this sense is greatly atrophied due, apparently, to our centuries old reliance on technology and violent manipulation of our environment to get our needs met. Who needs intuition when you can simply lay down some cash and get anything you desire?

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Some people don't need help to learn, some people need teachers, and this seems like an argument of some minority saying teachers aren't necessary. Sure religions tend to fall prey to the old Human desire for power and control, but when it all comes together a priest is a teacher and should be pointing the way, not leading it.

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citizen, you and I have been having arguments like this for a couple weeks now. You seem to want to reduce my arguments down to some simplified, binary oppositions. My mistrust of organized religion, and my own bad experiences with same, imply to you that I don't believe anyone needs teachers. lol

You're kinda driving me a little crazy with this stuff.

I think you put your finger on it, though, when you said teachers should "point the way" rather than "lead." I see organizations and institutions as fundamentally hierarchical most of the time. They're all about leading. I may be splitting hairs, but to my mind, the extent to which an individual member of such an institution points the way as you put it, she is being a good teacher. Such a teacher is abdicating the power with which the institution she belongs to has vested her; in essence, stepping outside the institution and interacting with the student as an individual. Such people are the good teachers, the ones who so often seem to have a problem getting tenure.

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Are you really saying that those who confess to be comforted by religion, spirituality or even faith really just have a 'hard on' for being repressed?

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First of all, I sure don't lump religion, spirituality and faith together like that. When I'm speaking against religion, I'm speaking against a man-made institution or hierarchy. As I understand it, when we defer to institutions and hierarchies we suppress a part of ourselves in order to do so. Freud called this "sublimation" and believed that it was necessary for "civilization." This can be a mindful compromise we make with the world as it is in order to survive. It saddens me, but as things stand, we all must do this to some degree. By the time you have a two thousand year old institution claiming to have all the answers, it seems to me you have to value repression itself in order to put up with all the unjustifiable strictures they lay down.

Emotions can be pretty scary; sexuality can be pretty scary; aggression--scary; speaking truth to power--scary. And fear motivates a lot of people to allow themselves to be repressed. To such people, repression becomes comforting, easy, the sign of an orderly and manageable life.

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No, but holding the knowledge yourself and it affecting your daily life are two very different things. Without the knowledge of the electron and its properties and behaviours the electr

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