There is no God.
POSTED BY: oldenglanddry
UPDATED: Friday, May 9, 2025 05:01
VIEWED: 30440
PAGE 23 of 25
Quote:Been away fomr the thread for a while (Of course there is no god. Why are we still talking about this?) but in reading thru the posts I have to say ths made me cry too. What a pity.
I have to get back to work. But here is an answer based on a child of a co-worker. That child was born with a severe midline defect (not just spina bifida or cleft palate, but brain, internal organs etc). She had an estimated life span of 18-24 months. Her parents loved her dearly, and cared for her with attention, diligence, tenderness, and even a certain amount of hope. What made me cry at work (one of the few times in my life I ever did) was seeing her photo at 18 mos, all dressed up in a beautiful little dress with her hair combed and put up in a little bow, held up by pillows as she couldn't sit up. It seemed so - hopeful. And at the same time futile. Though she was fortunate enough to be born into a loving family with adequate resources, nothing her parents could do could take away her intrinsic physiological and neurological suffering. She eventually did die at 24 mos, never having relief, and never having the time (or mental ability) to draw moral lessons. Her losses were, as I see it, both physical and moral
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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look around you; everything is a seething mass of creatures milling about on a rock in space.(Even the rock itself is a collection of vibrating minuscule particles) Every cm of skin is occupied by millions of monstrosities (u should really go to the appropriate site if u haven't seen them yet.When u die tons of creatures die with u, billions leave the sinking ship, innumerable atoms and molecules form new alliances.
Indeed we are all an insane collection of seperate organisms walking around poking our noses.
If there's a god (one of gazillion options) why would he look like us? That's a lot of pretention i say. As prove u come to me with a book that has been rewritten over and over again for over 2000 years? The only thing religieus people want is to enforce stupid rules on us and make us feel scared and guilty (thanks Mal). I don't believe in a dear and fluffy lord and i certainly don't need 'him' to tell me what to do. The word of jezus is love, i think that's a damn good filosophy and indeed i do love our precious blue pearl in space and all the funny creatures that live to experience it, and occasionally i even love those bastard human mongrels that think the universe turns around them alone. But mostly i just hate their stinkin egoism and rotten pretention.
And indeed it will all end in a few decennia cause we just can't stop eating up our mother planet. So i think S.F. is just a beautifull dream we have and share with the coolest people on earth: the nerds. ''IN THE FACE BUSH!'' AND JEZUS WAS A NERD!!''
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Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:
Well, were only in disagreement when you make your relative statement sound like fact.
You can't disprove God, I can't prove him, therefore, both of our statements are relative.
Quote:
Orginally posted by misbehaven:
Also, it's rather an erroneous concept to think that without God and Satan we would have no good or evil. Good and evil existed long before the rise of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, and will exist long after these religions diminish and disappear.
It's true I can't disprove the existence of God, but that doesn't negate that good and evil can exist independently of those religions. And, in the context of this particular conversation, I don't think I was trying to disprove the existence of God one way or the other, rather I was trying to illustrate that not everyone shares the same concept of God, nor do they necessarily understand good and evil the same way.
Morbid and creepifying I got no problem with, so long as you do it quiet like.
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Quote:
Originally posted by misbehaven:Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:
Well, were only in disagreement when you make your relative statement sound like fact.
You can't disprove God, I can't prove him, therefore, both of our statements are relative.Quote:
Orginally posted by misbehaven:
Also, it's rather an erroneous concept to think that without God and Satan we would have no good or evil. Good and evil existed long before the rise of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, and will exist long after these religions diminish and disappear.
It's true I can't disprove the existence of God, but that doesn't negate that good and evil can exist independently of those religions.
Quote:
Originally posted by misbehaven:
And, in the context of this particular conversation, I don't think I was trying to disprove the existence of God one way or the other, rather I was trying to illustrate that not everyone shares the same concept of God, nor do they necessarily understand good and evil the same way.
that's a given, isn't it? There is no need for illustration.
But there is a truth out there (let's just take a moment and harken back to the glory days of the X-files. Sigh. Okay, done now.
) and the answer to 'Can there be good without God and evil without Satan?' lies with that truth. Furthermore, that is not a truth we know at this point in time. So my statement is relative, just as your statement is relative. Now, if God as defined by Judaism and Christianity (sorry, can't add Islam as that is NOT the same god) ends up being truth, can people who don't believe in that truth still experience good and evil (i.e. "without God there is no good)?" Of course. 2+2 is still 4 whether you believe it is or not.
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"My feelings are changeable but intense" Anya (season 7 Buffy)
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I have to have universal truths to keep me sane.
If I didn't have universal truths I would have to post extended length diatribes trying to keep my self convinced that there are no universal truths.
YES I do live in absolute truth when Im wrong Im wrong and when Im right Im right.
I would be in prison for numerous reasons if I didnt have unversal truths.
God created Satan (the most beautiful angel he ever created)and gave him charge over certain things. Satan wanted to take God's place on the throne.Satan tried ,God busted him. Satan is now doing his best to drag down God's greatest creation "MAN.
Its all there in the Bible...King James Version...
not the watered down nicey nice new world versions.
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I've been through the system.
It don't work.
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Quote:Erm hey that's some pretty schizophrenic stuff there! So with you your right hand really doesn't know what you left hand is doing
Originally posted by RugBug:
Um, yes. They are seperate entities. They, however, are not absolutes.
What I meant is your right and left sides aren't separate beings, they are parts of the same being
.Quote:Sort of. From our narrow singular view we could see something as evil but does that mean that from god’s infinite point of view that thing is also evil? Is the concept of good and evil being relative all that strange? A serial killer kills five people and they are evil, a soldier kills five people and they are a hero.
Which may be where you're trying to go with this? Is that what you've been trying to say? That good and evil are relative?
Quote:And they were kicked out. How can they be said to have free will if the moment they exercise it they are punished?
Really? If originally free will was the choice to follow God or not follow him, how was free will not present in the Garden of Eden? They followed, then decided not to.
Quote:
So, from there:
Coin=God
One side=good
Other side=evil
Can you please explain the meaning you intended that I so obviously missed.
Ahh, poorly stated on my part, that evil isn't necessarily evil, that things we see as evil may have a purpose that in the long run improves the human condition and is good, though I'm finding my thoughts hard to put in writing at the moment...
Quote:The suffering caused by a rapist or similar is man made though isn't it? My thoughts were that the actions we prescribe to the devil most of the time could be those of god working in those mysterious ways of gods?
Hrmmm, you know, you're right. Lots of the old Testament has God raining down with the suffering. Even the Jews wandered in the desert...that probably wasn't too fun. In most cases, the people were given a warning to avoid the suffering and chose to ignore it. The Egyptians were warned to "let my people go" or the plagues would befall them. They made a choice. IMO, that is very different from the suffering that goes on today. God isn't sitting up there and telling some woman 'if you don't behave, I'm going to send some man over who will rape you.' So maybe someone who is Jewish can answer you about old testament suffering.
Quote:Erm, since when?
Now, if God as defined by Judaism and Christianity (sorry, can't add Islam as that is NOT the same god)
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Snails believe that one day the great snail that created them all to his image will come to earth and punish all the evil snails. Then he will turn the multiverse into a huge puddle of slime where the snails can munch their salads for ever and ever. Of course not the evil snails; they will end up on planet earth where they will be overrun by cars over and over again to their infinite doom! whahahahah!
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Quote:I don’t see the moral loss? I mean an obvious physical loss but not a moral one.
Originally posted by rue:
I have to get back to work. But here is an answer based on a child of a co-worker. That child was born with a severe midline defect (not just spina bifida or cleft palate, but brain, internal organs etc). She had an estimated life span of 18-24 months. Her parents loved her dearly, and cared for her with attention, diligence, tenderness, and even a certain amount of hope. What made me cry at work (one of the few times in my life I ever did) was seeing her photo at 18 mos, all dressed up in a beautiful little dress with her hair combed and put up in a little bow, held up by pillows as she couldn't sit up. It seemed so - hopeful. And at the same time futile. Though she was fortunate enough to be born into a loving family with adequate resources, nothing her parents could do could take away her intrinsic physiological and neurological suffering. She eventually did die at 24 mos, never having relief, and never having the time (or mental ability) to draw moral lessons. Her losses were, as I see it, both physical and moral.
Or (and here I will dip into a bit of eastern philosophy) in Karmic resurrection if you choose a body with a disability it shows your soul is mature and 'good'. So your colleague’s child here was in fact extremely strong morally in being willing to bear such an affliction.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:
Originally posted by misbehaven:
And, in the context of this particular conversation, I don't think I was trying to disprove the existence of God one way or the other, rather I was trying to illustrate that not everyone shares the same concept of God, nor do they necessarily understand good and evil the same way.
Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:
that's a given, isn't it? There is no need for illustration.
Obviously, it's not a given among everyone. And since it is directly related to what I was saying, I thought it might be helpful.
Quote:
Originally posted by misbehaven:
Good and evil existed long before the rise of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, and will exist long after these religions diminish and disappear.
As for the relativity of our statements, I'm still not sure we disagree, becuase I never said mine was a fact, as you noted yourself, ". . .you make your relative statement sound like fact." Regardless of how it may have sounded to you, it is clearly only my opinion.
Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:
Now, if God as defined by Judaism and Christianity (sorry, can't add Islam as that is NOT the same god) ends up being truth, can people who don't believe in that truth still experience good and evil (i.e. "without God there is no good)?" Of course. 2+2 is still 4 whether you believe it is or not.
I never said people who didn't believe in that truth were incapable of experiencing good and evil. In point of fact, I said good and evil exist independently of that truth, which is especially important if you don't believe in that truth. Now, whether you choose to acknowledge Islam as one of the Abrahamic religions or not, it still remains one. If you're intent on separating it from Christianity, then you better remove Judaism as well. Because the God of the Old Testament is no more the God of the New Testament, than the God of the Quaran is the God of the New Testament. Nevertheless, all three of these religions are based in the Abrahamic tradition. That is to say, their roots are all the same.
Morbid and creepifying I got no problem with, so long as you do it quiet like.
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Quote:
Originally posted by DukKati:
I have to have universal truths to keep me sane.
You believe what you like, absolutely! But what I mean by universal truth is something that everyone is going to agree with. ie - the sky is blue. OK, some people are colorblind or blind, but for most folks who see, this is the Truth. The universal truth.
Some things that are truths for you, for example:
Quote:
God created Satan (the most beautiful angel he ever created)and gave him charge over certain things. Satan wanted to take God's place on the throne.Satan tried ,God busted him. Satan is now doing his best to drag down God's greatest creation "MAN.
Is something YOU believe, but I don't, and there's no particular reason I should. It's not universal.
This is the danger I see in religion, that there is sometimes a lack of understanding that something that works for you may not work for me. And that's really okay!
So DukKati - you can't expect all your "God is good" etc logic to apply to my thought process and my world view, no matter which book it's written in.
Quote:
Its all there in the Bible...King James Version... not the watered down nicey nice new world versions.
Sorry guy, but this means nothing to me. Just saying "the Bible says so" is not proof of anything for me, nor for a lot of others. Expecting that it should be will lead to nothing but frustration and strife.
I think this topic is worthy of a new thread. Is OLDENGLANDDRY (the thread starter) still around? This one's gotten too long!
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I'm the president. I don't need to listen.
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