There is no God.
POSTED BY: oldenglanddry
UPDATED: Friday, May 9, 2025 05:01
VIEWED: 30440
PAGE 20 of 25
Alright, I wanted to stay out of this, I really did. I am not angered, nor disgusted, nor anything. I have a question reagarding the "free will" concept. This will be based on a few assumptions, so please bear with me for a bit; this is something that has plagued me, and maybe I can get an intelligent answer from the Christians in here.
Free will is god granting humans a choice in every aspect of their lives. This is completely unlike pre-destination, where everything is writ, nothing you do can change your destiny. Assuming free will exists, and humans do bad things that are blamed on this concept, from where does it originate? According to some, god created all things. This means everything, am I right? This would include thought and deed; all possible outcomes to everything a human is faced with has to have been created by god. If this is in fact true, there is no "free will"; humans just have a pool of pre-made decisions to draw from...good or evil, they have been created by god. Any arguements that "satan has a hand in it, too" will lead back to the fact that god created everything...including satan. If this is not so, then god is not the creator he is put up to be, and is merely another player in things.
Ok, flame away, for I am sure I will get a few of those. For those Christians in here interested in answering, I thank you in advance. I am an odd duck in that I can get along with almost anyone despite their beliefs (or lack of), as long as those beliefs are not foisted upon me.
Thanks for listening.
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Quote:You have a left side and you have a right side, are you saying that they are separate entities?
Originally posted by RugBug:
Evil cannot be good. Hot cannot be cold. Left cannot be right.
Quote:I don't see all that much free will going on in the garden of Eden.
I never said that evil can't have a purpose. Without evil, there is no recognizing good. (Look, we agree on that) Yes, good can come of evil (the whole crucifixion, for instance.) but that still doesn't make the original evil an act of 'good' God. Evil is a by-product of free will, not a component of God.
Quote:I don't think I said that, in fact checking my posts I can't find anywhere where I did, so yes it is your conclusion for the meaning of my statements and no it isn't the only one
Hey now, I don't think that was my conclusion.
.Quote:Like I said, your conclusion of my statements not mine.
My point was that God does not have to be good AND evil.
Quote:So god did not create all things?
Evil is neither in God nor of him.
Quote:But God HAS caused suffering, the plagues of Egypt spring instantly to mind. Those who suffer tend to come out of it 'better' (with notable exceptions), those who have never really suffered seem to end up shallow and self absorbed. Suffering compels us to be better and create a better world for those that come after us, without suffering we are diminished.
Suffering is suffering, not two ways about it. God doesn't cause suffering, but he does allow it.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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I've had thoughts like since seventh grade, Tristan (not to make you look bad, just as a fact); and, quite honestly, I've never gotten an answer that I was satisfied with. Of course, there were only a few people actually willing to think about it and answer my questions, so I haven't heard many opinions on the subject of the free will issue. I'll be interested to see what people say.
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Go to http://richlabonte.net/tvvote/ and vote Firefly!
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Citizen,
I suppose generic suffering has a logical place in the universe (good and evil), and even an indirect benefit to humanity (to make us more 'human').
I'm going to ponder it in the animal kingdom. There is no doubt that alligators suffer. So the point of internal suffering is that it keeps them away from damaging things. Yet they seem to have no particular concept of the suffering of others, not even other alligators. So suffering has no wide purpose in the alligator's relationship with other animals. And no refining effect on its nature.
But humans are capable of both suffering AND compassion. (They are internal responses probably shared with other species.) So suffering (survival responses) and compassion (feel-good brain chemicals from relating a special way to others) are human lessons from the physical world. However, evil and good are probably intentionally chosen suffering and compassion. So evil and good are 'moral' lessons drawn from human responses.
But I see suffering and compassion, evil and good, as arising from our physical world.
I've seen too much suffering in hospitals and in my personal life to feel that it has a 'godly' purpose, or even an impersonally moral one. People who suffer don't always survive it. And those who survive it aren't necessarily capable of good afterwards. If a child suffers and it makes the parents more human, has the moral benefit to the parents justified the moral cost to the child?
Just musing.
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Quote:I.e. Human inferences on actions or events.
Originally posted by rue:
However, evil and good are probably intentionally chosen suffering and compassion. So evil and good are 'moral' lessons drawn from human responses.
Quote:Is there a moral loss to the child or a physical loss? Does the child come through the suffering better off?
If a child suffers and it makes the parents more human, has the moral benefit to the parents justified the moral cost to the child?
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:Quote:You have a left side and you have a right side, are you saying that they are separate entities?
Originally posted by RugBug:
Evil cannot be good. Hot cannot be cold. Left cannot be right.
Um, yes. They are seperate entities. They, however, are not absolutes. Which may be where you're trying to go with this? Is that what you've been trying to say? That good and evil are relative?
Quote:Quote:I don't see all that much free will going on in the garden of Eden.
Evil is a by-product of free will, not a component of God.
Really? If originally free will was the choice to follow God or not follow him, how was free will not present in the Garden of Eden? They followed, then decided not to.
Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
I don't think I said that, in fact checking my posts I can't find anywhere where I did, so yes it is your conclusion for the meaning of my statements and no it isn't the only oneQuote:Like I said, your conclusion of my statements not mine.
Originally posted by RugBug:My point was that God does not have to be good AND evil.
Way up thread you stated this:
Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Without evil there is no good, Yin and Yang, Hot and Cold, two sides of the same coin. I think if there is a God and a Devil then surely they are one in the same, desctruction is required for creation.
So, from there:
Coin=God
One side=good
Other side=evil
Can you please explain the meaning you intended that I so obviously missed.
Quote:
Originally posted by Rugbug: Evil is neither in God nor of him.
Quote:
Originally posted by citizen: So god did not create all things?
Yes and no. Formless and void to life. God and angels. Angels had free will. Some chose not to follow God any longer, leading to the birth of evil. Evil is the consequence of free will. But originally, evil was just the rejection of God. It has grown in defintion over time.
Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
But God HAS caused suffering, the plagues of Egypt spring instantly to mind.
Hrmmm, you know, you're right. Lots of the old Testament has God raining down with the suffering. Even the Jews wandered in the desert...that probably wasn't too fun. In most cases, the people were given a warning to avoid the suffering and chose to ignore it. The Egyptians were warned to "let my people go" or the plagues would befall them. They made a choice. IMO, that is very different from the suffering that goes on today. God isn't sitting up there and telling some woman 'if you don't behave, I'm going to send some man over who will rape you.' So maybe someone who is Jewish can answer you about old testament suffering.
That's not to say I don't believe the God of the Old Testament isn't the God of the New, but I do believe things were shifted with the appearance of Jesus.
Okay, again I need to leave. I'm hoping I got all the quote tags close to correct. Forgive me if I didn't.
***************
"My feelings are changeable but intense" Anya (season 7 Buffy)
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Hi Citizen
I have to get back to work. But here is an answer based on a child of a co-worker. That child was born with a severe midline defect (not just spina bifida or cleft palate, but brain, internal organs etc). She had an estimated life span of 18-24 months. Her parents loved her dearly, and cared for her with attention, diligence, tenderness, and even a certain amount of hope. What made me cry at work (one of the few times in my life I ever did) was seeing her photo at 18 mos, all dressed up in a beautiful little dress with her hair combed and put up in a little bow, held up by pillows as she couldn't sit up. It seemed so - hopeful. And at the same time futile. Though she was fortunate enough to be born into a loving family with adequate resources, nothing her parents could do could take away her intrinsic physiological and neurological suffering. She eventually did die at 24 mos, never having relief, and never having the time (or mental ability) to draw moral lessons. Her losses were, as I see it, both physical and moral.
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I think it is time for milk and cookies. Not to take away from the deep and poignant thoughts, but sometimes it's good to step back, have some milk and cookies, and think about how unlikely it is that you can ever win someone to your viewpoint ( or someone could win you to theirs)... So milk and cookies all round
I choose to rise instead of fall- U2
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hey RUGBUG
No $500 ain't bad for all that if you own a Ferrari Testarossa and you drove it into the Ocean and sucked salt water into the fuel injection system.
sorry dude/dudeette
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Well ... I know my knower works and I don't need a college degree or spend thousands of dollars for some unhappy professor to tell me why he thinks we came from pond scum. I guess it just boils down to the freedom of choice given to us for free. You choose to believe or you don't.
What strikes me as funny is people who don't believe in God can be convinced He exists, thus they then know Satan exists, and BONUS knowledge is God is good and Satan is evil. Even a Satanist knows who Jesus and his Father are.
BUT>>>...You will never make a person who knows God ... truly believe God does not exist.
I've been through the system.
It don't work.
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Quote:
Originally posted by antimason:
i think its interesting to note that almost all prior civilizations, to my knowledge, believed in one or more Gods..literally in contact with them at a point.
im not sure we can just discount and discredit everything our ancestors believed, simply because we believe ourselves to be intellictually superior in every way.
Most of our ancestors believed in a form of slavery, human sacrifice, and a number of other "ungodly" things...It's called progress. Learn from your mistakes...move on. And outside of myself.. we are intellectually superior. Last time I checked the gas engine, electricity, air travel, computers, moving pitchers, radio, space travel, air conditioning, and crack cocaine were all invented post Christ...If he were really the son of god.....maybe the AC for the middle east?
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