Is Mal really an atheist?
POSTED BY: Esther
UPDATED: Thursday, August 24, 2006 00:36
VIEWED: 15846
PAGE 5 of 6
Quote:
Originally posted by Rai:
I don't believe that it's a good belief if you believe you should kill someone cause their hair color is green, or something like that
How about blue?
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Well, maybe then.
Yes, Jayne. She's a witch. She has had congress with the beast.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Oddsbodskins:
As regards stating that you don't believe in god because you can't believe a god would allow something to happen, well yes, there's no sense or reason to that, it's just a wee cream-puff of a tantrum. But then since i haven't heard anyone suggesting that to be the case, or the root of their belief's (except insofar as it may be the root of mal's, are we still sticking with that topic or are we letting it drift d'you reckon?) it seems to be a bit of an irrelevant thing to be bringing up, taken in the current context of the resident atheist's trying to defend/explain their belief's ^^
That came from me, I was challenging greenfaeries assertion that people became atheists from their dislike of their image of god. While the idea of someone just stating something like "there is no god because no god could allow this" is not a particularly good arguement, the attitude could come about through hardship or senseless tragedy. Those are two often recurring reasons for a loss of faith.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rai:
Well, maybe then.
Cool
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Quote:
Originally posted by fredgiblet:
That came from me, I was challenging greenfaeries assertion that people became atheists from their dislike of their image of god. While the idea of someone just stating something like "there is no god because no god could allow this" is not a particularly good arguement, the attitude could come about through hardship or senseless tragedy. Those are two often recurring reasons for a loss of faith.
oop, damn need to remember to reread things before i respond when i'm fallin' asleep, miss stuff otherwise
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I do agree that that attitude could be brought about very easily- everyone struggles with that outlook. How could this happen to me? The way I personally get through it is by believing that there is nowhere does it say that life is gonna be easy. Of course, that has the opposite effect of making me nervous when things are going well. (Pessimistic? Me? Never...)
Yes, Jayne. She's a witch. She has had congress with the beast.
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Quote:
Originally posted by GreenFaerie:
That's a matter of semantics. All of us are self-centered at birth. I argue that as we grow to know the universe, we realize that we are not the center of the universe. And therefore, we cannot claim that there is no such thing as God, which is a force beyond ourselves and beyond our understanding.
Actually I can. I realize that I am not the center of the universe, in fact in my own pessimistic, depressed way I recognize that I am not only not the center, but in truth I am more or less utterly insignificant cosmically speaking. However that fact in no way compells me to believe in a god. There is no center of the universe, and there is no reason to believe that there should be one, so the fact that we are not it does not imply the presence of a supernatural being.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Esther:
Mal claims to be an atheist, but I wonder, whether he really is.
An atheist does not believe, that God exists. But sometimes, I have the feeling, that's not Mals position.
It is hard to go from believing to utter atheism. If someone is grown up with the notion, that "someone is out there", it can become just such a basic part of you personality, that it's almost impossible to loose.
I rather have the feeling, that Mal does not question the existence of God, but that he is angry / disappointed about him. So in this sense, he is more an "Anti-theist".
Remember him saying: "You are welcome on my boat - God isn't." ?
He doesn't want to worship (or put trust) in a god, that had disappointed him before. That doesn't necessarily mean, that he denies his existence.
In one of the fanfics here, I read a passage, where Inara is badly hurt, almost dead, and Mal sitting beside her is praying "although he would have never admitted it even to himself". I could really imagine that. However, that would not be the way of an atheist, but of a disapointed believer.
I don't think Mal praying after the war is particularly believable.
But that aside, I think this thread hits pretty close to the mark. Mal is not quite an atheist and has never stated to be one. It seems like he allows for the possibility of god, and if so, he doesn't follow or call to that god. This is supported by his "god ain't" welcome on his boat thing. On the other hand, it does seems like he also allows for the possibility for there to be no god ("that's a long time waitin' for a ship don't come" (paraphrasing)). I think the loss of the war caused him to come to the conclusion that either god doesn't exist, or god doesn't care.
I think his belief is that he doesn't care if god exists, because he wouldn't follow god if it did exist.
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I agree with the posters who've said that Mal is an angry believer, rather than an atheist. Among other things, if he were an atheist, he wouldn't object to Book saying grace aloud (in the pilot). That's indicative of someone angry with God, and trying to punish him. An atheist would just say, "Go ahead" and think privately that there is no point (and maybe fume a little at how the meal is getting cold).
To add my two cents to the side argument on this thread, as I understand it, neither the existence of God nor the non-existence of God can be proven. As such, I think most people start on one side of the argument or the other and find they cannot be convinced to change.
I'm an atheist myself, raised by non-religious parents (one atheist, one with vague beliefs in a non-structured "higher power") but with cultural exposure to both Buddhists and Christians while growing up. Neither set of precepts nor their origins are particularly convincing to me, so I've remained an atheist.
BTW, I'm afraid the argument that "God passeth understanding" isn't very convincing. I'm not denying the existence of things that I don't understand, but I'm not going to accept the existence of something just because I don't understand it, either.
Indigo S.
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Quote:
Originally posted by GreenFaerie:
Huh? By my own understanding, God is beyond my understanding. He/She/It is not something I can relate to except on a spiritual level. I cannot claim that God has a personality, as that is a human trait. God is the universe itself, and that is something I can only begin to understand.
No too sure about that (regarding semantics). Saying "God has a personality" just means, that not only can I relate to him, but also he can relate to me.
The basic concept behind this is this: we percieve the things in the world to have more of a personality, the more "evolved" they are (Stone-Tree-Fly-Dog-Human). Now, assuming God exists, he would extend this row or even be outside of it, but certainly over it. Then he should have more "personality", than a human (I guess, this is what is behind the concept of Trinity), but not less.
Ot put in another way: If he is the universe, he must include the concept of personality, because it is a part of the universe. If not, he would be less than we are. I'm not saying, that God has a personality, like humans have, but if he exists, he would have as a "minimum" a personality, as humans have, but go beyond that.
If "it" would just be something like a "methaphysical law of nature", it would be less. This is somewhat in the line of Buddism (as I understand), and they don't percieve themselfs as "religion", but as "philosopy", and would never talk about a "God".
So obviously we cannot understand him (from our side - because he extends our understanding), but he can choose to "show" himself to us (because he includes our way of being). This is the concept of the three "Revelation-Religions": Judaism, Chritianity and Islam.
Boy, this is really hard to do in English, you know? But highly interesting!
Esther
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