Is Mal really an atheist?
POSTED BY: Esther
UPDATED: Thursday, August 24, 2006 00:36
VIEWED: 15846
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By the way, this is why I perceive Mal not as an atheist, because he is not intellectual about it - he never discusses the subject. He is just very badly hurt.
I agree. Mal is not an Atheist, he just hates God.
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And Atheists do not claim that there is no such thing as a power that is beyond their own understanding. By example, they believe in the existence of nuklear energy, laws of nature etc.. What they (in my perception) don't believe, is, that such a power is in any way intelligent, capable of feeling, planning etc, short, that it is a "personality" in the broadest sense (which is, on the other hand, the very foundation of the Jewish/Christian view on God).
Huh? By my own understanding, God is beyond my understanding. He/She/It is not something I can relate to except on a spiritual level. I cannot claim that God has a personality, as that is a human trait. God is the universe itself, and that is something I can only begin to understand.
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I believe with my all that there's nothing out there, no guiding hand, no creative force, nothing divine, or supernatural, or spiritual (although i do love my ghost stories, i have quite a repertoire of them now) but i admit the possibility that i'm wrong, and there is something beyond my comprehension.
Uh, then you are not an atheist. By definition, you are agnostic.
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as regards the charge of being self-centred, well, along the same lines as what fredgiblet said, without higher authority i'm accountable to myself and myself alone. my actions are defined by my conscience, my world view starts with what i can see, feel and touch (although the evidence of my eyes is interpreted by my brain, and that can't be trusted, everything with a pinch of salt adds spice to life). Maybe it's self-centred, but i don't know that's always a bad thing, i think if it was intrinsically selfish perhaps that wouldn't be to anyone's benefit, but i can't see much of a compelling argument for the (typical) atheist world view being intrinsically selfish.
That's a matter of semantics. All of us are self-centered at birth. I argue that as we grow to know the universe, we realize that we are not the center of the universe. And therefore, we cannot claim that there is no such thing as God, which is a force beyond ourselves and beyond our understanding.
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You seem to be saying that atheists do not believe because their perception of the form of god is incorrect, is that true? If so then your entire perception of atheism is wrong, all the atheists that I know do not say "I don't believe in god because he is 'some sort of old man in robes with a big throne in the sky'" but rather "I don't believe in god because the proof is not conclusive", or "I don't believe in god because no god would allow a world like this to exist" or something along that lines.
That's just silly. Can you prove that you love your mother? Can you understand what Free Will means? Some things cannot be proven.
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Ignorant? strange thing to call me, I am better read than most people my age (and many people a lot older), I know more about more things than most of the people I know. Most of the atheists that I know are more well-read in science, philosophy, and similar things than the theists that I know. In my experience a theist calling a atheist ignorant is often quite simliar to a pot talking to a kettle.
All of us are ignorant. None of us know everything. Atheists assume they know enough to call God non-existant. That is the height of ignorance, to assume you know all there is to know. To say there is no God is to say you know the universe and all that it means. That is the height of arrogance.
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Uh, then you are not an atheist. By definition, you are agnostic.
i beg to difer, admitting the possibility that i'm wrong does not mean i'm uncertain as to what i believe ^^ it's along the same lines as 'well, i believe heart and soul there are NOT invisible pink elephants flying about the stratosphere, but at the end of the day i can't prove it' just because i believe something, and happen to hold the opinion that i'm right, doesn't mean i neccessarily am, i've been wrong before, could be wrong again, just don't happen to think i will be ^^
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That's a matter of semantics. All of us are self-centered at birth. I argue that as we grow to know the universe, we realize that we are not the center of the universe. And therefore, we cannot claim that there is no such thing as God, which is a force beyond ourselves and beyond our understanding.
i'm not sure i agree with the connection between not being the centre of the universe and there being a god. i mean we blatantly don't sit at the ventre of the universe, we don't even sit at the centre of the galaxy, don't even live in the centre of the earth! but i don't see it as compelling evidence for a higher power.
hehe, okay, sorry, that was facetious, i couldn't resist, but i'm really not sure i understand the connection you're drawing here, could you try and clarify it a little?
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Originally posted by GreenFaerie:Quote:
You seem to be saying that atheists do not believe because their perception of the form of god is incorrect, is that true? If so then your entire perception of atheism is wrong, all the atheists that I know do not say "I don't believe in god because he is 'some sort of old man in robes with a big throne in the sky'" but rather "I don't believe in god because the proof is not conclusive", or "I don't believe in god because no god would allow a world like this to exist" or something along that lines.
That's just silly. Can you prove that you love your mother? Can you understand what Free Will means? Some things cannot be proven.
And I will chose to believe in the things that can. I think it is interesting that when theists are confronted with the paradox of an omnipotent being who doesn't like the way his world is going (and doesn't change it) that they fall back on free will. What good is free will if god punishes you for exercising it?
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All of us are ignorant. None of us know everything. Atheists assume they know enough to call God non-existant. That is the height of ignorance, to assume you know all there is to know. To say there is no God is to say you know the universe and all that it means. That is the height of arrogance.
I know enough to say that I cannot in good consience profess belief in any religious system created by man (and they are all created by man). None of my atheist friends believe that we know everything, I know that there are many things that I do not know. To judge someone because of their lack of interest in taking part in your personal delusion is the height of arrogance.
P.S. Sorry for the threadjack Esther but GreenFaerie started it.
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i'm not sure i agree with the connection between not being the centre of the universe and there being a god. i mean we blatantly don't sit at the ventre of the universe, we don't even sit at the centre of the galaxy, don't even live in the centre of the earth! but i don't see it as compelling evidence for a higher power.
hehe, okay, sorry, that was facetious, i couldn't resist, but i'm really not sure i understand the connection you're drawing here, could you try and clarify it a little?
A little, yes. If I am not the center of the universe, what is? Something greater than myself, something I do not understand. I define that as God. That is where the crux of the problem is... what do you define as God?
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i'm not sure i agree with the connection between not being the centre of the universe and there being a god. i mean we blatantly don't sit at the ventre of the universe, we don't even sit at the centre of the galaxy, don't even live in the centre of the earth!
First of all, I'm not quite sure how you can claim that we aren't in the center of the universe, unless you can tell me where exactly it ends? (Personally, I doubt it ends at all- what comes after? The ether? :)
I do believe that no one can say, "Well, I can't believe in God because I don't believe that He could allow something like this to happen." I think that the arrogance that we could understand where God is coming from and what He allows have to do with Him allowing us a) free will and b) a greater purpose in the end are what He has in store. But I also don't believe in looking down on anyone else for their beliefs (within reason, I don't believe that it's a good belief if you believe you should kill someone cause their hair color is green, or something like that). That's one thing I really like about this board, is that no one has gotten mean yet. I don't think that judging anyone else is something that is in our jurisdiction, and I've seen far too many people do that.
Yes, Jayne. She's a witch. She has had congress with the beast.
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Originally posted by GreenFaerie:
A little, yes. If I am not the center of the universe, what is? Something greater than myself, something I do not understand. I define that as God. That is where the crux of the problem is... what do you define as God?
ahhh, right, i see, the differance of opinion then, would be in the assumption that the universe has a centre, beyond the actual, literal, centre. because i don't believe there neccessarily has to be one.
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Originally posted by Rai:
First of all, I'm not quite sure how you can claim that we aren't in the center of the universe, unless you can tell me where exactly it ends? (Personally, I doubt it ends at all- what comes after? The ether? :)
mostly through facetiousness, i claim most things when i'm taking the mickey.
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I do believe that no one can say, "Well, I can't believe in God because I don't believe that He could allow something like this to happen." I think that the arrogance that we could understand where God is coming from and what He allows have to do with Him allowing us a) free will and b) a greater purpose in the end are what He has in store. But I also don't believe in looking down on anyone else for their beliefs (within reason, I don't believe that it's a good belief if you believe you should kill someone cause their hair color is green, or something like that). That's one thing I really like about this board, is that no one has gotten mean yet. I don't think that judging anyone else is something that is in our jurisdiction, and I've seen far too many people do that.
Yes, Jayne. She's a witch. She has had congress with the beast.
weeerl, i dunno, i thought calling all atheist's supremely selfish bordered on mean, but being the forgiving sort i am i thought i'd take it as i thought it was meant and let it slide ^^
As regards stating that you don't believe in god because you can't believe a god would allow something to happen, well yes, there's no sense or reason to that, it's just a wee cream-puff of a tantrum. But then since i haven't heard anyone suggesting that to be the case, or the root of their belief's (except insofar as it may be the root of mal's, are we still sticking with that topic or are we letting it drift d'you reckon?) it seems to be a bit of an irrelevant thing to be bringing up, taken in the current context of the resident atheist's trying to defend/explain their belief's ^^
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Maybe people have made some unkind statements. I should have clarified further in saying that none of them have been as ugly as I've seen people get- from both sides of the spectrum. Most people tend to get on the ugly and defensive side when they're talking about their beliefs, because it's such an integral part of who they are.
I was just pointing out that it's sad that we feel the need to insult each other's viewpoints to make ourselves feel better, and I find that more inexcusable from Christians like me, because that isn't what we should be doing.
But as to the original question, I do think that Mal is angry at God on a personal level- i.e., the derogatory comments about Him. Demons acknowlege God, are they on good terms with Him?
Yes, Jayne. She's a witch. She has had congress with the beast.
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I was also wondering where Mal claims to be an athiest? Does he ever actually say that, or are we just left at, "You're welcome on my ship. God ain't."
Yes, Jayne. She's a witch. She has had congress with the beast.
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