Is Mal really an atheist?
POSTED BY: Esther
UPDATED: Thursday, August 24, 2006 00:36
VIEWED: 15846
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I think the main problem with atheists is the definition of what "God" is. Seems to me that most atheists think that God is some sort of old man in robes with a big throne in the sky. Well, I don't believe in that, so does that make me an atheist? No. I think God is beyond our comprehension.
I don't think Mal is an atheist, I just think he does not trust in God. So what is God? That depends on your beliefs. In my own world, God is beyond our understanding. God is not male or female, nor is God omnipotent or ignorant. The universe is beyond our understanding and such is God.
Anyone who is an atheist is ignorant and self-centered. How can anyone claim there is no such thing as a power that is beyond their own understanding?
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I think it's not that he is hostile, or distrusts God. But he lost so much of the hope/innocence at Serenity that God went with it. He is impartial, much like he is to the alliance. He harbors no dislike or anything, it didn't work for him and he has moved on. He is different now.
"None of us will survive"
"Well, I might!"
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Quote:
Originally posted by GreenFaerie:
I think the main problem with atheists is the definition of what "God" is. Seems to me that most atheists think that God is some sort of old man in robes with a big throne in the sky.
Actually I (a strong agnostic\apatheist (look it up on wikipedia)), do not believe that a god exists. All of my atheist friends do not believe that god exists, the form of the god is unimportant, the existance (or lack therof) is what is important.
You seem to be saying that atheists do not believe because their perception of the form of god is incorrect, is that true? If so then your entire perception of atheism is wrong, all the atheists that I know do not say "I don't believe in god because he is 'some sort of old man in robes with a big throne in the sky'" but rather "I don't believe in god because the proof is not conclusive", or "I don't believe in god because no god would allow a world like this to exist" or something along that lines.
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Anyone who is an atheist is ignorant and self-centered. How can anyone claim there is no such thing as a power that is beyond their own understanding?
Ignorant? strange thing to call me, I am better read than most people my age (and many people a lot older), I know more about more things than most of the people I know. Most of the atheists that I know are more well-read in science, philosophy, and similar things than the theists that I know. In my experience a theist calling a atheist ignorant is often quite simliar to a pot talking to a kettle.
Self-centered? Perhaps, but the question is this: is it cause or effect? you seen to be implying that they are atheists because they are self-centered, when in fact the reverse is more often true in my experience. This is not really a flaw either but a logical consequence, if I don't spend my time deferring my thoughts to an invisible man, then I will spend more time thinking about myself. While the result may not be optimal, I don't see it as a flaw either, being self-centered allows me to do what is best, instead of what an ancient book says is best.
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I think Mal is more on the lines of being agnostic...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic
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Whether Mal is technically an athesit, an agnostic, or just mad at God is not strictly important to the story (IMHO). Just like one of the posts above said, when (in Serenity TP) the order to surrender comes, and Mal looks out as the Independents ships are abandoning him, he looses all faith. In everything. In governments, people, God. All he can do is have faith in his crew. God is not welcome on his boat because God abadoned him in Serenity Valley. Zoe, Kaylee, Jayne, and Wash are welcome on his boat because they are his people, his crew. That is what he has faith in. This message comes back again and again. Thats why he's so mad at Jayne's betrayal in Ariel. Thats why he goes back for the Tams in Safe. Thats why Inara says she has to leave in HOG... Mal's faith in the crew binds them to him, and she feels she must break those binds before it ties her to the ship for good.
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Muddersmilk makes some good points about where Mal’s faith and trust lie now.
As for whether Mal is an atheist or angry at God, I think the evidence is mixed, but I think both are plausible. I tend to think he’s an atheist myself.
And for those who say it’s difficult to be angry at someone or something that doesn’t exist, I have to say that’s not so. Have you ever been angry at a character in a piece of fiction? They don’t exist and you know they don’t exist, and yet you’re angry at them.
Then there’s the way some people respond to the loss of a loved one--they’re angry at them for dying. The deceased no longer exists in this world (and if you don’t believe in an afterlife, no longer exists at all), yet they’re still angry at them. Indeed, some atheists can get very angry at God for not existing! It’s a frustrated, futile anger (much like anger a fictitious character), but it doesn’t necessarily imply that they have any underlying belief in God.
That is kind of how I could see Mal’s angry statements about God. That comment about “Who’s colors he flying?” doesn’t necessarily mean Mal feels that God sided with the Alliance or didn’t intervene--it could mean that God isn’t flying any colors because he isn’t there. And Mal is angry that he was stupid enough to believe in a benevolent guiding hand to make things right when clearly such a hand doesn’t exist. So in the end, Mal may actually be very angry at himself for buying into the “false promises” of religion, which he externalizes as anger at God (note how statements such as “You’re welcome on my boat--God ain’t” serve to push away any religious sentiment, so it won’t be there to “trick” him again). Again, this does not necessarily mean that he believes in God, but the figure serves as a good catch-all for his self-resentment. Since he sees the concept of God as a (at best useless) delusion, I think he has good reason to be angry (good reason in terms of motivation). Doesn’t mean he still believes God is out there (though again, I admit, his statements can often be interpreted differently).
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Quote:
Originally posted by GreenFaerie:
I think the main problem with atheists is the definition of what "God" is. Seems to me that most atheists think that God is some sort of old man in robes with a big throne in the sky. Well, I don't believe in that, so does that make me an atheist? No. I think God is beyond our comprehension.
...
Anyone who is an atheist is ignorant and self-centered. How can anyone claim there is no such thing as a power that is beyond their own understanding?
okay, so i skipped the part of your post pertaining to the actual topic, i'd say sue me, but it might prove difficult to press charges against someone's online handle. I, as i have stated, am an Atheist, however i do not, as you suggest, deny the possibility of anything beyond my comprehension, i simply do not believe it is the case. I'm fallible, i can, in point of fact, be wrong, i believe with my all that there's nothing out there, no guiding hand, no creative force, nothing divine, or supernatural, or spiritual (although i do love my ghost stories, i have quite a repertoire of them now) but i admit the possibility that i'm wrong, and there is something beyond my comprehension.
as regards the charge of being self-centred, well, along the same lines as what fredgiblet said, without higher authority i'm accountable to myself and myself alone. my actions are defined by my conscience, my world view starts with what i can see, feel and touch (although the evidence of my eyes is interpreted by my brain, and that can't be trusted, everything with a pinch of salt adds spice to life
). Maybe it's self-centred, but i don't know that's always a bad thing, i think if it was intrinsically selfish perhaps that wouldn't be to anyone's benefit, but i can't see much of a compelling argument for the (typical) atheist world view being intrinsically selfish.
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Quote:
Anyone who is an atheist is ignorant and self-centered. How can anyone claim there is no such thing as a power that is beyond their own understanding?
@ GREENFAERY
Being the "creator" of the thread, I would prefer statements here being less "absolute", if it comes to judging others.
I perceive myself as a christian, however, I know many atheists, who are socially, politically and personally very committed and involved (along the Angel-quote: if nothing, what you do, matters, all that matters is what you do). In many cases, atheists are very intellectual, because they had a need to defend their views against family and friends (similar to christians, growing up in a non-believing environment).
By the way, this is why I perceive Mal not as an atheist, because he is not intellectual about it - he never discusses the subject. He is just very badly hurt.
And Atheists do not claim that there is no such thing as a power that is beyond their own understanding. By example, they believe in the existence of nuklear energy, laws of nature etc.. What they (in my perception) don't believe, is, that such a power is in any way intelligent, capable of feeling, planning etc, short, that it is a "personality" in the broadest sense (which is, on the other hand, the very foundation of the Jewish/Christian view on God).
In my experience, self-centerd and ingnorant people are in most cases the ones, who "took" a believe or an (atheistic) view on the world from their peergoup/family, because it was convenient, but never had the need to defend or define it for themselfs. Such people, who were never confronted with doubts or suppressed them at an early stage because of the fear, they might loose their "believe", if they did.
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And for those who say it’s difficult to be angry at someone or something that doesn’t exist, I have to say that’s not so. Have you ever been angry at a character in a piece of fiction? They don’t exist and you know they don’t exist, and yet you’re angry at them.
@ STAKETHELURK
Well, for me that is more a "virtual" kind of anger. If I'm really angry, I'm angry at the reality behind the fiction (i.e. the writer). Atheists I know are not angry at god (no point, if there is no god), but rather angry at themselfs (as you said) or against the church (as an organisation taking advantage of the stupidity of men, thus bringing suffering over others just for its own good/power). But Mal is not angry against the church (otherwise, he probably would not accept Book the way he does), and he seems not being angry at himslef (at least I see no evidence in the series) but against God!
Esther
My lessons learned from Firefly (no. 11):
A ruthless bounty-hunter can still be a philosopher (That seem right to you?)
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Quote:
Zoe, Kaylee, Jayne, and Wash are welcome on his boat because they are his people, his crew. That is what he has faith in. This message comes back again and again. Thats why he's so mad at Jayne's betrayal in Ariel. Thats why he goes back for the Tams in Safe.
Hmmm, I wouldn't use the word faith in this sense. Religius faith (theme of this thread), is to acknowledge, that my own knowlege, power, morality etc. is not suficient to go the way I would like to go. It is to accept, that I need someone else (God) to teach me, hold me, forgive me and sometimes to carry me.
Now I think, that Mal would never ask his crew, to carry him. On the contrary, he feels obliged to carry them. It is out of the question, that they are willing and sometimes do carry him (and then he is rather thankful), but he would never ask for it. He demands of himself to do it all by himself, to be responsible for himself and for the crew on top of that. He knows, that he needs them in a sense, but he would never admit it, less even ask for it. Oh, and you know, that he expects Jayne to turn on him, some day, but he still feels responsible.
He sends them all away in OOG, but requires from himself, to stay. Inara tries to tell him, that he does not need to be alone, that he can have "faith" in his crew, but he does not allow himself, to have it. "Everybody dies alone". The sad part about this is, that Mal also lives alone, be cause he feels, that there is no-one, he can have "faith" in. He has to do it all by himself. He is responsible for them, not the other way around.
It's so good, that in OOG at the end, it's not him, who saved the crew, but the crew, who saved him. So that might have been a first step towards "having faith in his crew", but still a long way to go. He is thankfull, but still demands from himself to carry them, not the other way around (ZOE: It'll never happen again, sir. MAL: Good. And thank you. I'm grateful.)
Esther
My lessons learned from Firefly (no. 12):
If you're floating in space all alone, your chances are one in about... a very big number. (well… here I am)
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