Michael Moore sued for Farenheit 9/11
POSTED BY: Amiton
UPDATED: Monday, June 5, 2006 03:06
VIEWED: 12492
PAGE 12 of 13
Quote:
Originally posted by DallasFirefly:
It's a frivolous lawsuit, one that won't make it far. Interesting that Republicans are usually the ones whining about frivolous lawsuits tying up our legal system. Loss of reputation? What reputation? Is this guy a celeb or a public figure? Everyone who appears on camera in documentaries has to sign a waiver authorizing use of their interview, despite this guy claiming he didn't give Moore permission to use the footage, he almost certainly did, perhaps not personally to Moore, but to one of the people involved in F 9/11. If this guy signed off, that will the end of the case. The waivers never say, we can use this part of your interview, but not this part. The entire interview would have been authorized, so the guy has no case of any merit, assuming that Moore's people did their job and got a signed authorization/release. He's just pissed off and trying to get attention, and/or money. Time will tell of course, but I would be surprised if this guy gets one penny for his troubles. I wonder how many millions he tried to get out of Moore before going public?
From a brief (exceedingly brief - I guess that tells you right there how important I find this whole story) perusal of the reports the footage used by Moore was originally shot by an NBC news crew who were doing a report about military personnel in that particular hospital. Seems to me like Moore just bought the footage (or went through some sort of interaction to get the footage). I don't see how Moore can be held accountable in this instance for misrepresentation. It's not like he went to the hospital, talked to the guy, told him a lie about how he was going to use the footage and then filmed away.
The only potentially legitimate complaint this guy has (IMHO) is with those who originally shot the footage and then traded it to Moore (and NBC one of the parties getting sued so maybe that's what he is going for with that part of the suit). I have no idea what the process is when a news crew films people and if there are signed releases and all that (the only thing I have to go on is how we do things in academe and there are pretty stringent protocols in place for videotaping individuals and getting their permission, after explaining how the footage will be used and who will have access to it and when it needs to be destroyed, etc. - I'm really only familiar with non medical human subjects protocols but I do know it gets even more strict when the studies are of a medical nature). And I also don't know what rights a person has in how that video is used after it is filmed. If it's anything like tabloid photographs then probably no rights.
If this guy wants to challenge the whole process of news organizations selling off video footage to third parties then I think the dollar amount is legitimate since the penalty, if a jury finds in his favor, should be more than a slap on the wrist. The reason settlements in these cases are often so large is that juries want to send a message to corporations that the behavior they engaged in was not cool and there should be more than just one lash with a wet noodle. Although what often happens is that the original amount awarded by the jury is nickel and dimed down to an amount not even of the same order of magnitude (hey, those corporate lawyers get paid the big bucks for a reason). Talk about not believing in the will of the people (as decided on by a jury of everyday folk).
However, it also sounds like he just has a hard-on for Moore. Which is fine. Many people on the right do. It's amazing how much power they think he has and how frightened of him they are. I don't know anyone personally on the left who thinks he walks on water (unless frozen and even then ... okay, I won't go there). But say his name to some people on the right and BAM, all higher order cognition shuts down and they're all reptilian brain. Quite humerous actually.
* edited to add: This post was apparently sponsered by "(" anc ")".
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Nah, I don't think MM should be sued. At least not unless I have facts that indicate that he didn't get permission from whomever he was supposed to get permission from. And frankly, I doubt this guy's "loss of" reputation is worth $85 million.
Most people on the right have no problems mischaracterizing their "enemies". Kerry got "swift-boated" with outright lies about his service in Vietnam. Jean Schmidt (R) called John Murtha- who served in Korea and Vietnam- a "coward". Chambliss (R) called triple amputee Vietnam vet Max Cleland "traitor". McCain's wife, according to Republican dirty tricksters, had a half-black love child. Conyers employed some of his staff to (GASP!) babysit.
Should we hold Michael Moore to higher standards?
Nah.....
---------------------------------
Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.
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Amiton, you might be right about Moore not having a release from the man suing him. If Moore didn't get a release he's certainly guilty of stupidity, if nothing else. It's impossible for a documentary filmmaker to get releases from everyone, for example it would be tough to get a release from someone you corner on the street and throw questions at. On the other hand actual interviews should always be accompanied by a written authorization. It would be incredibly foolish for Moore to have included this guy in F 9/11 without s blanket release in writing. I think Moore will win this suit anyway, but he should give some serious thought to being more careful in the future. To be fair, Moore should not have used the man's footage in the first place, though I don't think he should be sued over it.
I wanna be Mr. Baccarin!
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DallasFirefly,
Moore had nothing to do with the filming of the footage. He bought it second-hand, so to speak. An NBC news crew shot the footage for a story.
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My understanding (taken from various amateur photography websites) is that even a release would not nescessarily help you in all cases. Releases essentially deal with the contractual part of establishing who has the rights to dispose of an image and what media it can be used in. Even assuming that the producer of the material gets the subject to sign over all rights to the image it doesn't mean it can be used for anything.
For example, I take a picture of a model in a swimsuit and she signs a release. Later it gets used in a very visible billboard campaign. It's unlikely that the model can later turn around and sue me for more money because my use of the image and it's sale to an adverising firm are things covered in the original contract.
However, suppose I sell the image to a porn producer to put on the cover of one of his tapes. The tape implies that the model appears in the video. Now even though the release she signed says that I have all rights to the image she could probably sue for reputation damage because of its use on the video. Likewise if the model's image used on that billboard had an caption that says "This girl has AIDs, be safe get tested" she would probably sue.
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Overall I like Moore, but buying second hand footage from NBC, then editing it to portray it's subject as anti war/military when that was clearly not the case is underhanded. I doubt that this suit will go anywhere, but it damages Moore's credibility, and I'm someone who usually defends him.
I wanna be Mr. Baccarin!
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Quote:
Originally posted by DallasFirefly:
Overall I like Moore, but buying second hand footage from NBC, then editing it to portray it's subject as anti war/military when that was clearly not the case is underhanded. I doubt that this suit will go anywhere, but it damages Moore's credibility, and I'm someone who usually defends him.
I wouldn't disagree with any particular point. However, it's been a long time since I saw F911. I don't remember this particular 10 second clip. I don't know if the man said anything on the clip. I don't know how the clip was used, whether to make the point that war is terrible or to make the point that the military doesn't support the war, or whatever. And I don't feel strongly enough about this topic to actually go out and rent F911 (or even to put it in the Netflix queue). So, absent actually seeing the clip in its entirety and in context, I'm not sure if your points are valid. They may very well be. And it wouldn't surprise me. But without hard evidence I'm not willing to jump on the bandwagon.
One thing is clear. Those arguing that Moore tricked this man into getting him on video are in error. There was no false advertising since he never actually dealt with this man at all. If he is guilty of anything it is what you said, using video to give an impression that is the opposite from what the man intended. Which I agree is a crappy thing to do. It's not right when politicians do it (the vast majority of spin falls in this category - using selected evidence to give an impression that is the exact opposite of what all the evidence shows) and it's not right when documentary filmmakers do it (and it wouldn't surprise me if the vast majority of documentary filmmakers actually did engage in this behavior - every edit is a decision to leave out information when you get right down to brass tacks).
* edited to clarify some things.
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The brief clip wasn't a major part of the film, it was used to reinforce Moore's view of the human damage the war has caused, and his claim that the military/White House isn't doing enough to care for soldiers wounded in Iraq. Of course he could have found plenty of soldiers who have had trouble with VA hospitals and red tape since being injured. The fact that this soldier isn't unhappy with his treatment since injury doesn't alter the fact that many are. Moore's point is valid, he just should have used a different clip to reinforce it.
I wanna be Mr. Baccarin!
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"it's inflammitory misinformation and sometimes outright fabrications being passed off as fact."
As is "smoke 'em out", "dead or alive", "WMD", "mushroom cloud", "blue skies initiative", "sound science" - and the rest of the Bush crap. Why doesn't THAT irritate you no end? You can choose to see a MM film, or not. Unless you're ready to leave the US, you're stuck with whatever inflammatory lie Bush spews.
Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.
I will certainly agree that those are all inflammitory terms, Rue. And I will agree that Bush and crew are guilty, in most common senses of the word, of doing more than a few things that they shouldn't.
I will say this: I have been a slanted supporter of Republican candidates, by and large. That's more because the information that I know about candidates I really don't like tends to be more about Democrats than Republicans, not because I affiliate with one party or another.
Personally, I think every *single* one of our national level politicians are corrupt, and they all need to be removed, have a new series of laws put in place to prevent it from ever happening again installed, and start over with a clean slate. I don't think it matters what your intentions are when you get to Washington. You're going to play the dirty game or your going to end up in very bad shape.
And it's for that same reason that I believe that it doesn't really matter who we put in office via elections. No matter their personal beliefs, they're going to end up doing what they're told just like every other national level politician, or they're going to be ruined. Period.
I'm not a huge Bush guy, but Bush did do one thing that I gave a lot of credit for (whether it was his doing or not). In my eyes, he never really put himself up as much more than a puppet for his advisors - he's the frontman to take the flak and does what he's told - and he installed a powerful, and for the most part intelligent and well-credentialled cabinet to be those advisors.
More and more, it's coming to pass that some of those advisors have either less than honorable or less than intelligent agendas and now we don't have a president that's got enough of anything to stop it. And we as a nation are paying for that.
While the buck does, and rightfully should, stop at Bush, I don't hate *him* for it. The strange bedfellows of Rumsfeld and the heads of our intelligence organizations are where the blame lies for me. They all need to be removed as quickly as possible (and I don't believe for a second that Hayden was a step in the right direction, btw), but then the issue comes in who are we going to replace them with in a way that we know will slow the damage? I don't have that answer.
Bush is a putz. I'm there now. I don't think he did anything that any other politician wouldn't have been put through in the same situation, though. That's why I'm not real big on the impeachment thing (that, and I don't think it would have ever been mentioned if it hadn't happened to Clinton and now some people want to even the score). He'll finish his term and we will begin to rebuild as a nation. If he's personally found guilty of violating laws (which it sounds like he's been painting a pretty picture for with respect to constitutional law) then prosecute him in two years and finish completely discrediting his presidency. There's no need for bad blood there, he's doing just fine on his own.
Blah. I've lost my thoughtline and I'm wandering now. I hope this made some sense, and I hope I fit an answer to your question in there somewhere, Rue. If I didn't, ask it another way and I'll see if I can come up with a more concise answer that *does* make sense. And just in case that came off as a dig at you, it wasn't
It was a statement about my lack of clear writing before I start thinking =p
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