Michael Moore sued for Farenheit 9/11
POSTED BY: Amiton
UPDATED: Monday, June 5, 2006 03:06
VIEWED: 12492
PAGE 10 of 13
Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
That’s why they’re called conservatives, they aim to conserve. As for liberals there’s no accident that they have a name that sounds so similar to liberty…
I see your problem. Your confusing the word conservative with the label conservative. Conservative and liberal mean different things at different points in history. Just because I'm a conservative does not mean I think the world is flat and that we should all stay loyal to the King.
Those folk labled today as conservatives were the liberals who conceived a nation of liberty with what at the time were radical liberal notions. These same folk wanted to free the slaves.
The real trap you are in is assuming the political spectrum is two dimensional with a left and a right. Turns out there is a right and a wrong as well. A real conservatice, classic Republican, and those people who share my values are right on both accounts. The labels change, the values never have.
The same is true for radical leftists whose agenda is at odds with the values traditionally associated with the left. Those people are no more liberals then radical right wingers are true conservatives. Left, right, right wrong...thats the political spectrum.
H
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Monolycus- We come to this board to discuss things, not to shut up. Where would be the fun in staying quiet? It's always a sad day when anyone - right, left, green, or purple- leaves the board. Unfortunately so many right-wingers have left the board that I may have to play devil's advocate. YIKES!
---------------------------------
Be prepared to see a BIG CHANGE in SignyM!
That's fair to say, and it's not my place to try to stamp out free speech or anything... I suppose I was offering my tuppence as a cautionary tale more than anything else. If there's a troll, and I am certainly not pointing to anyone in particular there, they don't go away through regular feedings. As long as everyone is on board with the ground rules as such, carry on.
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Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
But his America, included French colonies, Spanish colonies, Dutch colonies, blah b;ah blah ad infinitum - and was therefore NOT AMERICAN.
Perhaps you should go find a map of this continent, circa 1690.
He was speaking of America the idea, which has always been so much more then a geographical or political entity...perhaps he was even the first philosopher to conceptualize that which history evolved into the American Dream.
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
Its the "yearning to breathe free" part that sums up the American Dream. They come still by the millions, but there are a few billion more who want to come but can't or don't want to give up their own nation...but the yearning remains. So why not be free in Germany, be free in Japan, South Africa, Argentina, South Korea, Afganistan, Egypt, Iraq...liberty knows no borders and she knows no cultural barrier. She has a home prepared in the hearts of us all free and slave alike. Such has been the policy of the United States for sixty years.
H
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
What the HELL are you talking about? I know you don't read other people's posts, but do you even read your own?
Citizen and I were having an ongoing discussion which included comparison of Britain and American notions of liberty. Also, I threw in a little line at the end to poke those who complained that we had swerved off topic. Perhaps you could go back and read a few other posts yourself.
H
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I can't recall Liberals advocating pedophilia, violent crime, or anti-semitism. I'm also not sure what you mean when you say 'American puppets in the WTC.' This sounds rather like something PirateNews might say.
I stuck that last bit in there to tweak PN, thats an ongoing inside bit for the anti-PN folk round here.
As for my other assertions there are numerous examples of each...but I'll but one for each catagory:
Pedophilia: ACLU takes up the fight to overturn the limits we are placing on pedophiles access to children...there is also the ACLU taking on ban's on posssion and sale of child porn on the internet.
Violent Crime: Jeez, how many examples do you need here? Lets just go with all the liberal judges handing out little of no sentences for child rape...or perhaps liberal judges that let the guilty walk free on technicalities, or perhaps the international celebrity effort to free a certain cop killer in PA, or geez...just pick up a fracking newpaper.
Anti-semitism: In the US I'd point to certain African-American leaders, and the marginalization of a certain Senator and former VP Candidate...in Europe I'll have to rely on others.
Quote:
I also don't think Liberals hate jobs, industry, invention, or prosperity.
They just advocate polices that place their priority in other areas I guess. Lets seem trees over jobs, field mice over industry, cute little rabbits over invention, and redistribution of wealth over prosperity so that we all can be equally poor, out of work, ravaged by disease or lack of makeup, and poor. But damn...the air is so clean it almost makes up for their starving disease ridden, fashionably challenged children.
Quote:
I do think Liberals are tolerant of alternative lifestyles like homosexuality and polygamy. I think this is because neither of these lifestyles cause damage to anyone when they are shared by consenting adults.
Now, now...I never mentioned homosexuality...thats your own liberal minded decision to make that a negative association. And polygamy is abusive and often involves children.
4.6% unemployment.
H
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Quote:
Originally posted by Monolycus:
That's fair to say, and it's not my place to try to stamp out free speech or anything... I suppose I was offering my tuppence as a cautionary tale more than anything else. If there's a troll, and I am certainly not pointing to anyone in particular there, they don't go away through regular feedings. As long as everyone is on board with the ground rules as such, carry on.
I always thought the whole troll idea was pretty straight foreward. You've got the real wacko's like the Pirates. Then you've got the the people who can't be civil.
Now take this discussion. Its heated, passionate, but generally contains a very civil discussion between people with divergent points of view. Seriously, how many troll posts engage in a dialogue on the finer points of Locke versus Hobbes.
In any event, on review my only poor sportmanship seems to be the occaisional smartass remark, which is mainly to keep it light and the deliberate pokes at people like PN. If this crosses some imaginary line then it serves to prove my point...liberals can't tolerate dissent whilst I, the lone voice of reason...ok, not lone, but definately a voice, anyway whilst I welcome discussion.
Now I gotta run for awhile, people need jailin for the weekend and thats my job.
H
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:Quote:
Originally posted by Monolycus:
That's fair to say, and it's not my place to try to stamp out free speech or anything... I suppose I was offering my tuppence as a cautionary tale more than anything else. If there's a troll, and I am certainly not pointing to anyone in particular there, they don't go away through regular feedings. As long as everyone is on board with the ground rules as such, carry on.
I always thought the whole troll idea was pretty straight foreward. You've got the real wacko's like the Pirates. Then you've got the the people who can't be civil.
Now take this discussion. Its heated, passionate, but generally contains a very civil discussion between people with divergent points of view. Seriously, how many troll posts engage in a dialogue on the finer points of Locke versus Hobbes.
In any event, on review my only poor sportmanship seems to be the occaisional smartass remark, which is mainly to keep it light and the deliberate pokes at people like PN. If this crosses some imaginary line then it serves to prove my point...liberals can't tolerate dissent whilst I, the lone voice of reason...ok, not lone, but definately a voice, anyway whilst I welcome discussion.
Now I gotta run for awhile, people need jailin for the weekend and thats my job.
H
*Laughter*
HERO, you are in no way the voice of reason. You sound like a control freak.
River
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Zero,
Were you discussing LIBERTY when you said:
Liberals invented political correctness, sensitivity trainng, reverse discrimination, and sexual harrassment lawsuits.
Liberals also seem unusually tolerant of abberrant lifestyles like people who want to have sex with children, have more then one wife, take druges, commit violent crimes, and kill Jews (and their American puppets in the WTC).
Liberals like bugs, birds, animals, and trees, and hate jobs, industry, invention, and prosperity.
And the British of the 21st Century have more in common with Americans of the 18th Century then they do with their British ancestors. Heck, you bloody commoners can even own your own land these days. And I loves me a good episode of Doctor Who I does...and not just the new ones, Tom Baker is my favorite. And what real American doesn't enjoy Fish and Chips (aka Long John Silver's) and a spot of tea (Snapple) once in a while? What right thinking Brit can go without watching American Idol while sipping a coke and trying to decide if you'll go see the WWE live in Manchester or just catch it on the Tele? And terrorists have been attacking London since before it became fashionable.
Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.
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I said a Conservative was someone who wants to perpetuate the status quo, which is exactly EXACTLY what a conservative is.
The label is what comes in when you talk about specifics, because that will change when the status quo changes, the fact that Conservatives will want to perpetuate that system will not.
Face it, everything you hold dear right now was brought to you by Liberal movements, not conservative. If conservatives had always got their way during the last century Women wouldn't have the vote, there would be far fewer civil rights (which lo and behold Conservatives are trying to remove, for other people), less freedom of speech (again something modern 'conservatives' are attacking), segregation of 'coloureds' and so on.
But because YOU view the political spectrum as you say right and wrong you have decided that Liberals are evil, because they aren't conservatives, it would seem.
At a real stretch you could say groups like NAMBLA are 'Liberal' and by the same stretch I could say the people who violently oppressed Women were 'Conservative' so if you could get off you 'all Liberals are evil and responsible for all wrong in the world' kick that would be fantastic.
Or you could try and put all Liberals in to some sort of camp that would 'concentrate' them together. That's a tactic that worked for people before when they wanted scapegoats.
Quote:Please, you’re talking to people who are, identify themselves as or whom you call Liberals and then saying all Liberals are evil and like child molesters.
In any event, on review my only poor sportmanship seems to be the occaisional smartass remark, which is mainly to keep it light and the deliberate pokes at people like PN. If this crosses some imaginary line then it serves to prove my point...liberals can't tolerate dissent whilst I, the lone voice of reason...ok, not lone, but definately a voice, anyway whilst I welcome discussion.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
"I had a rose named after me and I was very flattered. But I was not pleased to read the description in the catalog: 'No good in a bed, but fine against a wall'." -- Eleanor Roosevelt.
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Quote:
I do think Liberals are tolerant of alternative lifestyles like homosexuality and polygamy. I think this is because neither of these lifestyles cause damage to anyone when they are shared by consenting adults.
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Now, now...I never mentioned homosexuality...thats your own liberal minded decision to make that a negative association. And polygamy is abusive and often involves children.
Hero,
Interesting to note that I'm liberal-minded now. You do enjoy labelling people. Please don't put your signs on me.
The problem with your statements, Hero, is that they are vague and atagonistic, without any specific references that I can see?
As for 'alternative lifestyles' I'm not sure what else there is other than homosexuality and polygamy. You can illucidate me as to the other ones that you meant.
Now, I find your statement on polygamy interesting:
Quote:
And polygamy is abusive and often involves children.
Polygamy IS abusive. Stated as fact.
Except, you know, it's not always abusive. Maybe you meant that polygamy is sometimes abusive? In which case I may retort with...
"MARRAIGE IS ABUSIVE."
And you added "Often involves children."
To which I may retort with the complete counter-argument: "MARRAIGE IS ABUSIVE AND OFTEN INVOLVES CHILDREN."
But now my statement doesn't make any more sense than yours.
Now Hero, if you'd like to go back through your sweeping statements about Liberals one at a time and point me to the specific instances you're talking about, I'd be happy to research those specific instances and see if I can agree.
On the other hand, it seems very much like you are arguing global conditions
LIBERALS HATE CHEESE
Where only some are true:
FIVE PERCENT OF LIBERALS HATE CHEESE.
And this isn't really a fair way of treating anyone, is it?
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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