US Border Patrol gives Minutemen locations to Mexican Gov't. !!
POSTED BY: AURaptor
UPDATED: Monday, May 15, 2006 13:40
VIEWED: 14225
PAGE 8 of 9
Quote:
Originally posted by Amiton:
The intent was a gesture of civility, not my poor attempt at being an ass.
My sincere apologies. For some reason this thread in general has my blood pressure up (not to mention the fact that I'm bored to death because I've had no students for two days - testing - so all I've done is sit on the internet).
Quote:
At any rate, it was supposed to be a submission to contribute to the debate that was in the mainstream press. It illustrates some of the issues on both sides of the debate, so I had hoped to put it out here without being partial to one side or the other right now.
And it was an excellent submission, especially for me, since I feel it proved my point
. Keep up the submissions like that!------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V
Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.
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"I seriously doubt, that having a gun helps avoiding trouble. I think having a gun, more often causes trouble, whatever the intention was..."
Well, you're not going to win any points with me for condemning gun ownership or the carrying of firearms.
Quoting Michael Moore isn't particularly helpful either. Some day you'll have to look up his investigative journalism technique. You know, such as chopping up and re-editing Charlton Heston's speeches to make it appear he is saying things at times and places he did not. The man is a propagandist. His sole redeeming quality is that his propaganda is opposed to administration propaganda, and so it creates a valuable 'balance of lies and half-truths' that let me know where the real truth is. (In the middle.)
I'm not ever going to convince someone who doesn't like firearms that firearms are a good thing. They will never believe that they are useful for anything but causing trouble and exacerbating crime.
A lot of people won't ever believe in the philosophy of remaining armed. Not until they or someone they love is being raped or murdered. In those moments of violence and pain, the victim would earnestly wish for one chance in ten to stop that pain and violation.
But their pain and violation must be accepted. Their rights to defend themselves must be refused. We know better. Disarming the lawful and condemning the use of firearms is the best way to safeguard the majority.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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I maybe a merchant mariner away from the problems in the U.S., but can anyone again answer that question posted.."what is the difference between neighborhood watch and the minuteman society"? If all each does is watch their neighborhoods what is the difference? desert or neighborhood, community, country. Have pitty for the illegal aliens, anyone ask the march organizers.. why not march on Mexico City.. after Mexico has a 25 billion dollar trade surplus, they are an oil producing country? If the golden rule of Mexico is he who owns the gold makes the rules.. well march in Mexico. Someone made a comment on the carrying of guns by the minutemen, why not? if you are watching and calling the border patrol for every sign of movement, you are a target. Tell you what.. move to a drug neighborhood, stand out side with a camera, video camera, cell phone and call the police everytime a transaction takes place.. can someone tell me what will happen.. yes the drug thugs will get you. It's the same here, approached by machetes, assault rifles and other weapsons.. I know, yeah.. that law, mentions several back.. make it illegal for anyone not law enforcement to be on the border.. yeah that sounds good.. huh.. no wait. that was tried in Berlin. remember the wall? yes a wall was built.. but manned by troops with machine guns, that shot first and asked questions later.. so which do you want, you have 11 million illegal undocumented people already here, and more attempting to come any way possible. what are you for, wall or no wall, open borders or no borders. I am not worried about jobs lost, many already have to NAFTA, CAFTA and out sourcing, believe me, I live in the Philippines with my wife, I see the expansion of U.S. businesses for cheap labor. Do you honestly think giving U.S. citizenship away so easily going to make a difference? Are these jobs "Americans" do not want are going to be filled or continue to be filled with newly made citizens? I don't think we are all stupid.. people are in these jobs, not by choice, you are in them because you shirk the law! pay taxes, yeah how, with an invalid social security number, forged license, if you buy groceries or other items, paying a sales tax does not qualify you for citizenship. We have to make tough choices, ellis island does not exsist anymore neither is the social expansion climate. Want to help their families fine.. but demonstrate against their government, change their country's economic and political atmosphere, show efforts on their part don't come here and try to make changes and force changes here. Go back and make those demands on Fox. I agree with the immigration changes.. place the national guard on the border, add the reserves too. I see Mexico threatening to take this before the World Court and the U.N. they must have nothing more on their minds.. then the welfare of their own people. I do not know anything about the minutemen other than what is shown on tv, but what I see are people taking action and that action may endanger themselves. I appreciate that at least someone is doing something about it. I guess that is wrong.. what is right.. lets see,, hire an undocumented alien, give him a job with below legal pay standards, higher hours of work, and I bet no overtime and no medial benefits.. prove me wrong anyone.. show me a business that follows the law with the hiring of illegals please. show me following the labor laws?
Merchantmarine 1
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If your neighbourhood watch schemes are tooled up citizen militias that travel the streets at night looking for crime, but obviously only ring the police and watch from a safe distance, obviously; nothing, they're vigilantes to.
Some how I doubt that's what your neighbourhood watch schemes are.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.
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Merchantmarine1,
This is in regards to the neighborhood watch comparison. To me, a better question is how are the Minutemen different from the Klan Border Watch that David Duke and others organized in the late seventies? Both are groups of people who are motivated more by a fear of "invasion" by hordes of brown people. Both are groups that were primarily interested in media exposure and whose leaders were hoping to use that exposure to jump start a political career. Both are groups whose members espouse idealogy that most sane Americans recognize as ignorant, hateful, and primarily motivated by fear. Suporters of the Minutemen try to gloss over the very disturbing beliefs of many of the members. Maybe in an effort to make their racial hate more mainstream. I'm not sure. What I am sure about is you can dress up a pig all you want but at the end of the day you still have a pig.
The question is, should we let our immigration debate be driven by racism? Or should we be more rational about the whole thing. Should we go after the people on the bottom? Or go after the corporations who have no interest in developing a more effective immigration policy.
Say our biggest problem right now is that we need to cross a raging river. One very successful method would be to find the largest tree we could and fell it to make a bridge. The Minuteman solution is to pick a blade of grass, wave it around for all to see and yell at the top of their lungs, "Look at me! Look at me! I help. I help."
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To Citizen, I suppose to you the Guardian Angels are vigilante's. This is not about the guiding principals of the organization, the founders beliefs or political goals. You have according to the Government 12 million undocumented illegal aliens in the U.S. I see those replied have not offered any proof that those businesses with undocumented aliens as employees are following the law inregards to their pay,hours of work and benefits. My family owns several ranches, grape ranches and deal with migrant workers... so I doubt alot here have that encounter behind them.. tell you something... the migrants now are not the same from Cesar Chavez.. that group won their citizenship left the field work its a new generation now and demanding the same. What everyone has forgotten and turned it political, the dilema has not changed and it is not new. Since Cesar Chavez the march for undocumented rights has been marching and sounding off for years and no one paid attention until NAFTA, CAFTA AND OUTSOURCING forced thousands back to the help wanted ads. I have the opportunity to travel due to my work as a merchant seaman, travel not as a tourist and see the real side of life. Mexico is not a 3rd world country, it is ruled by the rich and powerful elite, just legalized drugs and has adopted a plan to help push their lower class across our borders, making "our problem, not theirs." I hear from all critics they are here to help their starving families... WOW! SOUNDS LIKE A CASE FOR AMENISTY INTERNATIONAL. are these people saying their government (Mexico) is intentionally starving their lower poorer class. That is not hype.. just watched Larry King Live and the pro amensty supports all said the same thing.. "THE UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS ARE HERE FOR WORK WHICH SUPPORTS THEIR STARVING FAMILIES" (LARRY KING LIVE 5/12/06) MARCH ON MEXICO CITY AND AGAINST THIS ATTROCIETY IF THEY WANT CHANGE. ANYONE TELL ME WHY THEY CANNOT? I WOULD LIKE AN ANSWER AFTER ALL THEY ARE MEXICAN CITIZENS.. FIRST..
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Quote:When they first started that was exactly what they were. If they still are I don't know, I don't know enough about them. I suppose anyone who's actions you agree with can't possibly be Vigilante's.
Originally posted by Merchantmarine1:
To Citizen, I suppose to you the Guardian Angels are vigilante's.
Quote:You seem to have missed off the paragraphs where any of this proves that the Minutemen aren't vigilantes.
This is not about the guiding principals of the organization, the founders beliefs or political goals. You have according to the Government 12 million undocumented illegal aliens in the U.S. I see those replied have not offered any proof that those businesses with undocumented aliens as employees are following the law inregards to their pay,hours of work and benefits. My family owns several ranches, grape ranches and deal with migrant workers... so I doubt alot here have that encounter behind them.. tell you something... the migrants now are not the same from Cesar Chavez.. that group won their citizenship left the field work its a new generation now and demanding the same. What everyone has forgotten and turned it political, the dilema has not changed and it is not new. Since Cesar Chavez the march for undocumented rights has been marching and sounding off for years and no one paid attention until NAFTA, CAFTA AND OUTSOURCING forced thousands back to the help wanted ads. I have the opportunity to travel due to my work as a merchant seaman, travel not as a tourist and see the real side of life. Mexico is not a 3rd world country, it is ruled by the rich and powerful elite, just legalized drugs and has adopted a plan to help push their lower class across our borders, making "our problem, not theirs." I hear from all critics they are here to help their starving families... WOW! SOUNDS LIKE A CASE FOR AMENISTY INTERNATIONAL. are these people saying their government (Mexico) is intentionally starving their lower poorer class. That is not hype.. just watched Larry King Live and the pro amensty supports all said the same thing.. "THE UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS ARE HERE FOR WORK WHICH SUPPORTS THEIR STARVING FAMILIES" (LARRY KING LIVE 5/12/06) MARCH ON MEXICO CITY AND AGAINST THIS ATTROCIETY IF THEY WANT CHANGE. ANYONE TELL ME WHY THEY CANNOT? I WOULD LIKE AN ANSWER AFTER ALL THEY ARE MEXICAN CITIZENS.. FIRST..
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.
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Alot of the word Vigilante? Can anyone show me, I watch the cable news networks, ALL OF THEM, I have not seen a hanging, summary execution, accusation of murder? Did or has anyone seen such. Does anyone know the definition of Vigilante? doubtful, here is a history lesson, San Francisco 1850 to 1889 during those years more vigilante justice was dispensed by the citizens of San Francisco than any part of our country. (Fact) This is not a Charles Bronso flick, or a Geotz subway panic attack with a semi auto. Like I said.. my views are from watching the independant news programs, all I care about in my opinion is someone is taking their time without pay putting their lives on the line to stand on the border with bino's and a cell phone and call the authorities when aliens attempt to cross. I watched a CNN special with a report on the field with a special group of INS agents like SWAT they could not catch a group of 30, why, wrong place. We have 12 Million and counting inside and more to come.. I would worry less about a groups beliefs, and more on action. I do however believe that if these members are being threatend by illegal intruders into our country, the illegals are demonstrating their lack of regard for our laws and citizens of the United States. That clearly possess a clear and present danger not to citizens standing a watch on the border but to every citizen every where. Post the National Guard from California to Texas, add Colorado,Nevada,Oklahoma, Wyoming and Kansas as support. I would welcome the poor and disadvantaged but GET BACK TO MEXICO AND DEMONSTRATE IN MEXICO CITY FIRST ABOUT YOUR COUNTRY'S LACK OF SUPPORT FOR THE DELEMA OF THE POOR IN MEXICO. STOP PROTESTING IN OUR COUNTRY. Waive the mexican flag with honor in Mexico city as you protest against Fox and his social programs. Like I said.. no one will offer a reason why millions will take to our streets but never raise a protest sign in Mexico city. I remember a high speed chase involving illegals and the organge county sheriff back in the 90's, weaving, throwing objects at the police hitting other cars to cause accidents in trying to get away.. oh.. yes they were captured, roughed up.. Ask or answer this.. What would happen if this group tried this with Mexican Federal Policia and other mexican jursdictional police? WE KNOW EXACTLY WHAT WOULD HAPPEN. THESE ARE NOT STORIES MADE UP ITS A TWO WAY STREET IN MEXICO Yes police officials and officers are executed by drug and crime cartels.. petty criminals if caught, wish they were else where. Its not about that. Either make a stand or stand in line, sooner or later the influx of illegal immigrants will affect everyone even our lower class poverty line will be affected.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Merchantmarine1:
Does anyone know the definition of Vigilante?
Well you sure as hell don't.
Quote:
doubtful, here is a history lesson, San Francisco 1850 to 1889 during those years more vigilante justice was dispensed by the citizens of San Francisco than any part of our country. (Fact) This is not a Charles Bronso flick, or a Geotz subway panic attack with a semi auto.
History lesson: The meaning of vigilante has bugger all to do with San Francisco. (Fact) it comes originally from the Latin 'Vigil'. (Fact) the modern dictionary definition is along the lines of someone who takes the law into their own hands without government sanction.
So you see I don't need to drag up good ol' San Francisco lynchings, because although the groups that did that were vigilante groups a vigilante group doesn't have to do that in order to be a vigilante group.
Oh and nothing you said even goes an eigth of the way to refuting the vigilante accusation.
Quote:
I watched a CNN special with a report on the field with a special group of INS agents like SWAT they could not catch a group of 30, why, wrong place. We have 12 Million and counting inside and more to come.. I would worry less about a groups beliefs, and more on action. I do however believe that if these members are being threatend by illegal intruders into our country, the illegals are demonstrating their lack of regard for our laws and citizens of the United States. That clearly possess a clear and present danger not to citizens standing a watch on the border but to every citizen every where. Post the National Guard from California to Texas, add Colorado,Nevada,Oklahoma, Wyoming and Kansas as support. I would welcome the poor and disadvantaged but GET BACK TO MEXICO AND DEMONSTRATE IN MEXICO CITY FIRST ABOUT YOUR COUNTRY'S LACK OF SUPPORT FOR THE DELEMA OF THE POOR IN MEXICO. STOP PROTESTING IN OUR COUNTRY. Waive the mexican flag with honor in Mexico city as you protest against Fox and his social programs. Like I said.. no one will offer a reason why millions will take to our streets but never raise a protest sign in Mexico city. I remember a high speed chase involving illegals and the organge county sheriff back in the 90's, weaving, throwing objects at the police hitting other cars to cause accidents in trying to get away.. oh.. yes they were captured, roughed up.. Ask or answer this.. What would happen if this group tried this with Mexican Federal Policia and other mexican jursdictional police? WE KNOW EXACTLY WHAT WOULD HAPPEN. THESE ARE NOT STORIES MADE UP ITS A TWO WAY STREET IN MEXICO Yes police officials and officers are executed by drug and crime cartels.. petty criminals if caught, wish they were else where. Its not about that. Either make a stand or stand in line, sooner or later the influx of illegal immigrants will affect everyone even our lower class poverty line will be affected.
As I said before:
You seem to have missed off the paragraphs that show how any of this proves the Minutemen are not vigilantes.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.
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Citizen,
You obviously do not know or understand the meaning of vigilante anyone can quote a dictionary term. I do not need to submit any proof of any illegal actions or vigilante deemed retaliation. This is where you are wrong, I did not miss any paragraphs, after all, I watch the news and special field reports, I don't have to miss anything, I see their efforts and appreciate what each memeber is doing regardless if you do not. You have not responded to the accounts of the minuteman groups in California that and else where that have been threatend by illegals attempting to gain entry. I have not even seen a reply about the recent discovery of personal information on border agents, their families and address for targets of violence. What I see is someone whom for what ever reason has dislike or hatred for a group or any group that is trying to at least make some effort for their communities or states. You point out racial agenda's that have nothing to do with standing on the border with a cell phone and binoculars. I suggest you either stand at the border and make a difference or get out of the way or are you the type to just go ahead allow the 12 million (govt estimate) in give them citizenship and that will solve the problem. Did you see the rallies or did you participate in them I am trying to figure out which. You don't support neighborhood watch by criticizing their attempts or actions. If any illegals were executed by the minutemen I would agree. I suppose you do not believe that the marchers closing down businesses and attempting the same on our major cities is in no way vigilante? My suggestion spend more time in the real world at the front of this political and social hot spot and less in the front of the computer. You do not provide answers about the labor laws and illegal/undocumented workers in the country already. So in closing.. while you spout about some ridiiculius notions of racial or nazi beliefs.
Merchantmarine 1
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