US Border Patrol gives Minutemen locations to Mexican Gov't. !!
POSTED BY: AURaptor
UPDATED: Monday, May 15, 2006 13:40
VIEWED: 14225
PAGE 3 of 9
You can call the Minuteman organization a bunch of racists with an agenda, hidden or exposed, but when people volunteer their time, watch the border, arrest and escort anyone crossing illegally to the proper authorities I say thank you. Tax payer paid employees are failing and how many are in the country now? 11 million? I have left a response to the blog "illegal immigration", I find it hard to challenge their program when they have been threatend with machetes, rocks and assault rifles. The respondant a few back said she is glad to live in a state where you can carry a pistol on your hip and an assault rifle if you wish, well, the latest attack was near the california border by a california based watch group. California does not allow its citizens to carry guns and has a ban on all types of assault rifles. Please feel safe in that regards, citizens of California cannot. One respondant mentions the confiscation of personal items.. every on field news crew that video tapes the arrests, detainment and transport of captured illegals does not show any personal items being returned either. In fact, a cable news program aired a flight from the U.S. to a South American country with illegals captured. I did not see one leave the bus to the plane with a bag, and did not see one leave the plane with anything except hand cuffs and shackles. What is your point? I could care less of a groups founding principals or beliefs, there is no proof of abuse, if there is a problem, deploy the National Guard and Reserve instead of to Iraq, if the cost of transport is a problem, National Guard of that state or other states are called up and assist in the transport in military convoys. There are answers, but allowing the threat to continue: marches, demonstrations and increased border violence.
Merchantmarine1
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"So they need firearms to observe from a distance because...
Are they those new mobile phones with built in gun attachment so they can ring the authorities perhaps? With your obvious greater grasp of the situation I'm sure you have all the answers."
Haha. Good one. For the record, I wouldn't go into the desert without a weapon. There's a lot of good reasons to carry weapons in the wilderness whether or not you're planning to be in the proximity of criminals. (Which, you know, illegal immigrants ARE.)
I used to carry a pistol with me almost everywhere I went in South Florida. It was kept in a comically named 'Thunder Wear' holster rig under my jeans. You know, because sh*t happens, and I'll add 'have a gun' to my list of options when it does. In Florida, you can't carry a pistol on your hip, but in Arizona you can.
7% pointed out that there have been threats of violence against the Minutemen. He has pointed out that there are situations where violence might erupt. That seems like additional incentive, not disincentive, to keep firearms on your person.
Now, if you could explain to me how the Minutemen differ from the Neighborhood Watch, I'd be appreciative. (I'm guessing it'll have something to do with the Minutemen legally carrying firearms.)
Or perhaps you find the Neighborhood Watch a lamentable institution as well?
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Is this one of the things George Bush has done well or one of the things that's someone else’s fault or one of the things "that isn't really happening la la la I'm not listening"?
Bush isn't listening, and as President, this is HIS screw up - ROYALLY.
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If all they're doing is watching the border why are they armed? Why are they afraid for their safety? Its vigilantism, a bunch of Cowboys who think it's still the 1860's and they're "gonna get them varmints, yeehah! I'm a callin' you out bawy!".
While you might want to hold to the picturesque image of family of Mexican migrant farmers, scurrying across the border with 3 generations of close knit, hard working, repressed folk looking for work, only to be oppressed by BIG BUSINESS, then being faced down by 'Bubba' and 'Tex' carrying their high powered rifles and sawed off shot guns....that's hardly the case. Never mind the fact that well armed and very determined drug runners are bringing contra band(drugs) into the country, and would rather shoot first and never ask questions than run the risk of dealing w/ the cops. I don't know about all the border states, but in Arizona, I believe carrying guns is perfectly legal. And then there are Mexican as well as other Central/ South American gang members crossing the border as well. Them folk ain't here to pick avacados or pluck chickens.
When you call it 'vigilantism, you have never shown more ignorance at any time while posting on FFF.net...and that's saying a lot.
Ain't nothing wrong w/ John 'The Duke' Wayne. A true American cinematic hero!
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
carry weapons in the wilderness whether or not you're planning to be in the proximity of criminals. (Which, you know, illegal immigrants ARE.)
Yes, they are breaking the law. But you are basically saying everyone that wants to come to America is a violent thug when you make a sweeping generalization that you need to be armed with a high-powered weapon to patrol for illegals. Besides, according to their manifesto, they aren't supposed to BE in the vicinity of armed criminals, they are supposed to be out of anything but binocular range. By saying that they need to be right there in the way, you're only proving my (and Citizen's) points for us (that they are vigilantes looking for trouble).
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7% pointed out that there have been threats of violence against the Minutemen. He has pointed out that there are situations where violence might erupt. That seems like additional incentive, not disincentive, to keep firearms on your person.
Yes, I did point that out. But you missed my point, part of which was that having a gun in an already tense situation is likely to make things worse, not better. Flashing a pistol to show how 'safe' you are is not a smart way to ease tensions, especially if there is a language barrier.
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Now, if you could explain to me how the Minutemen differ from the Neighborhood Watch, I'd be appreciative. (I'm guessing it'll have something to do with the Minutemen legally carrying firearms.)
Or perhaps you find the Neighborhood Watch a lamentable institution as well?
I'm not fond of it, frankly, because it promotes busybodying and vigilantism in a neighborhood setting. That's what cops are for. If I wanted my neighbors spying on me with binoculars, I'd buy them a pair myself. Know your neighbors, tell them who belongs and who doesn't, and you eliminate the need for a neighborhood watch.
There was just a news article on Fark (those of you that are Farkers know, as said before, that if you want to hate the human race, that's where to start looking for material) where people climbed a bridge to watch the sunset, and someone called out the emergency rescue trucks because they thought it was suicidal jumpers. They didn't bother to ask, didn't check it out, just interfered; now the couple has to pay a fine for the cost of their 'rescue,' which they didn't need. Busybodying without penalty; the caller should have had to pay the fine instead.
Just as in the quote I provided in a post above, just because you can doesn't mean you need to sit in a bank with a pistol waiting for robbers. That's what security is for, and that's what cops are for. Might you prevent a robbery? Certainly. Might you also create a situation where innocents are killed because of you? Again, certainly.
As far as differences between them and Minutemen are concerned, I'm not sure there are that many. Bunch of racists acting beyond the law trying to keep the neighborhood 'pure.' Meh.
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"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V
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Originally posted by AURaptor:
. Never mind the fact that well armed and very determined drug runners are bringing contra band(drugs) into the country, and would rather shoot first and never ask questions than run the risk of dealing w/ the cops.
So the answer to stopping violent, armed criminals that may be coming across is to put untrained civilians in between them and the people that are actually trained to stop them? Smart play. Reminds me of the South Park movie, "Operation Darkie Shield." What a great plan! It's a miracle then that nobody's been killed yet.
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And then there are Mexican as well as other Central/ South American gang members crossing the border as well. Them folk ain't here to pick avacados or pluck chickens.
Stop yourself here and ask a simple question: "Why might the government be telling Mexican gov't agents where minutemen are?" Answer, they may be working in conjunction with Mexican agents/officials in undercover operations, involving letting certain people across, and a bunch of hicks that think they're helping might get in the way of catching real crooks. Took me 2 seconds to come to that logical conclusion, but no one else thinks to ask that question?
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Ain't nothing wrong w/ John 'The Duke' Wayne. A true American cinematic hero!
Well, we can agree on something!
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"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V
Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.
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Originally posted by Merchantmarine1:
You can call the Minuteman organization a bunch of racists with an agenda, hidden or exposed, but when people volunteer their time, watch the border, arrest and escort anyone crossing illegally to the proper authorities I say thank you.
I did, and they are. And I won't say thanks, because I care what is done in my name. And groups with ties to the Klan and to Aryan Nation are not groups I want representing America (and with that, me, by proxy) at our borders.
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I could care less of a groups founding principals or beliefs, there is no proof of abuse,
I care a lot, and so do many others. There's a reason decent people don't take money or gifts from Nazis or criminals; that's because no matter how beneficial it appears on the surface, there's always the taint of hate on it. No thanks.
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"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V
Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.
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"Yes, they are breaking the law. But you are basically saying everyone that wants to come to America is a violent thug when you make a sweeping generalization that you need to be armed with a high-powered weapon to patrol for illegals. Besides, according to their manifesto, they aren't supposed to BE in the vicinity of armed criminals, they are supposed to be out of anything but binocular range. By saying that they need to be right there in the way, you're only proving my (and Citizen's) points for us (that they are vigilantes looking for trouble)."
Wow. You say in one sentence that drug cartels are putting violent people through the border and that they have threatened the minutemen. In the next sentence, you say that weapons are unnecessary because the Minutemen are not supposed to come within engagement range, only within binocular range.
Well, guess what?
1) Binocular range is engagement range.
2) Some folks might want to cross the border clandestine-like in situations of limited visibility. You might not see them until they are much closer than binocular range.
3) You might violate your binocular range principles in order to help someone in apparent need of assistance. And they might (as you said) be criminals seeking to execute you.
4) You missed the part (even though you quoted it) where I said I wouldn't go out into the wilderness without a weapon. Bad policy. Whether or not you're planning to be in the vicinity of criminals (which illegal immigrants ARE.)
And finally...
I don't suggest that all illegal immigrants (a 100% criminal population) are VIOLENT criminals. Heck, I'm a criminal. I've Jaywalked. But we both agree that SOME of them are. (You gave me good examples, thanks.) And so it makes sense that IF YOU CHOOSE TO PATROL then YOU OUGHT TO TAKE PRECAUTIONS FOR YOUR SAFETY.
You don't like the Neighborhood Watch, and that's fine. You think the Minutemen might do as much harm as good, and that's fine, too.
If they do as much harm as good, then we have a status quo. It then becomes a matter of personal taste and opinion.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Wow. You say in one sentence that drug cartels are putting violent people through the border and that they have threatened the minutemen. In the next sentence, you say that weapons are unnecessary because the Minutemen are not supposed to come within engagement range, only within binocular range.
Well, guess what?
1) Binocular range is engagement range.
If you aren't a trained professional, with a badge/patch/ID/whatever, you shouldn't even be in binocular range, in MY opinion. I commented on what it supposedly says in THEIR OWN manifesto, according to what StillFlyin posted.
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2) Some folks might want to cross the border clandestine-like in situations of limited visibility. You might not see them until they are much closer than binocular range.
And in a situation of limited visibility, it's that much easier for the minutemen to get into trouble. Again, they don't need to be in the area.
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3) You might violate your binocular range principles in order to help someone in apparent need of assistance. And they might (as you said) be criminals seeking to execute you.
Yes, you might, and yes, they might be. Yes, I agree that it's a great thing to be a good samaritan. But AGAIN, their own manifesto says that in those situations, they are not to provide aid, they are to call in trained personnel. What are they doing going in then, and armed?
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4) You missed the part (even though you quoted it) where I said I wouldn't go out into the wilderness without a weapon.
Didn't miss it. Ignored it as irrelevant. I'm from the southwest originally, and I know how the terrain is. Having a small pistol to deal with snakes or coyotes is a lot different than having a rifle and patrolling for 'criminals.' I wouldn't go into the wilderness without a weapon either, but when I go into the wilderness I'm not hunting people.
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I don't suggest that all illegal immigrants (a 100% criminal population) are VIOLENT criminals. Heck, I'm a criminal. I've Jaywalked. But we both agree that SOME of them are. (You gave me good examples, thanks.) And so it makes sense that IF YOU CHOOSE TO PATROL then YOU OUGHT TO TAKE PRECAUTIONS FOR YOUR SAFETY.
THEY SHOULDN'T BE PATROLLING! They aren't law enforcement personnell, which makes them vigilantes. If they had badges, they'd have a legitimate purpose for being there; they don't, so they don't. It's why we have special people who get to drive special trucks marked 'Border Patrol,' and we give them special toys like handcuffs and walkie-talkies.
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If they do as much harm as good, then we have a status quo.
Currently they are not hurting anything, but what do we do when they do? When the first one gets killed, or they screw up a clandestine operation? What do we do then? Go "whoops, well I guess that didn't work out!"? By then it'll be too late. We have law enforcement for a reason, not the least of which is a safety issue for our own citizens.
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"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V
Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.
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Originally posted by reaverman:Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Our fathers and grandfathers didn't defeat the Germans just so George W Bush could surrender to the Mexicans!!
AURaptor, I'm surprised. You seem to be channeling PN here. I agree with you that this is a serious problem, but this isn't a war. Migrants aren't coming here to ruin our country or bring down the government or somesuch. They are just people who, like most people, don't think long term. What they see are greener pastures than what they have at home. Most don't (or refuse to) see that what they are doing will eventually bring this country to its knees economically.
You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.
Well, America has changed. I mean when immigrants come here they should have a little more respect for the the bases in which this country was built upon. How many Americans sacrificed their lives through the years so that Americea could be what it's become?
Slowly, things are changing. I mean not having the pledge of Allegience at school anymore? How many years before us were our parents and grandparents saying that? No one ever complained too much.
I do have more poignant facts to argue, but my mind seems to be fried today. Maybe another time...
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for immagration and America being the 'promised land,' but I just don't think that America should lose it's identity.
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May the feas of a thousand camels infest the crotch of the person who has ruined your day, and may their arms be too short to scratch~Anonymous
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I was starting to smell "conspiracy wacko" but as I was reading this first couple of posts...Fox News also broke the story.
~~~~~
"Funny and sexy. You have no idea. And you never will."
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