US Border Patrol gives Minutemen locations to Mexican Gov't. !!

POSTED BY: AURaptor
UPDATED: Monday, May 15, 2006 13:40
VIEWED: 14225
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CITIZEN

Thursday, May 11, 2006 2:13 AM

Maybe you need to read my definition again. It goes a little something like this:
Someone who does the job of a law enforcement agency, off their own back. In other words someone who takes the law in to their own hands.

So their not doing that, despite that being exactly what they said they were doing and wanted to do?

I don't remember saying they had to be off lynching Mexicans to be vigilantes, although:

Lets read Soupcatchers article:
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=557

Quote:
At Station Two, Minuteman volunteers grilled bratwursts and fantasized about murder.

"It should be legal to kill illegals," said Carl, a 69-year old retired Special Forces veteran who fought in Vietnam and now lives out West. "Just shoot 'em on sight. That's my immigration policy recommendation. You break into my country, you die."

Well thats reasonable I suppose. Not like their actually doing it, they just want to, but they're worried they won't get away with it.

Quote:
Vigilante militias have been capturing, pistol-whipping and very possibly shooting Latin American immigrants in Cochise County since the late '90s

I said they were doing the border patrols job, which they are and doing that is taking the law in their own hands. The feel they need to be armed, so they obviously think their coming into contact with Mexicans crossing the border, so they're not just observing, they're approaching people as well.

Funnily enough you can pick up binos that have high magnification power, well out of the range of a pistol, so they can observe without ever needing to get close. But they need a relatively close range weapon like a pistol, so which is it, are they observing from a distance or getting in close?

But at least it's not racially motivated, and the founders have no history of taking the law in to their own hands:

Quote:
The Minuteman Project was the brainchild of two fathers: Jim Gilchrist, a retired accountant and Vietnam veteran from Orange County, California, and Chris Simcox...
...
While Gilchrist is newly prominent on the anti-immigration front — he recently joined the California Coalition for Immigration Reform, a hate group whose leader routinely describes Mexicans as "savages" — Simcox has been active since 2002, when he founded Civil Homeland Defense, a Tombstone-based vigilante militia that he brags has captured more than 5,000 Mexicans and Central Americans who entered the country without visas.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

BROWNCOAT2006

Thursday, May 11, 2006 2:22 AM

Im not gunna try and get into the middle of this but all I wanna say is, to those of you who don't support the Minutemen, do you really wan't a bunch of Spanish "immagrints" (and I use the term loosly) to come into the United States without appling for a visa, and then start taking jobs away from much more skilled American workers? We have plenty of our own poor and underprivaleged people here in the United States that could be getting job training and takeing the jobs that the illegals are, which would, lets face it, help the lower costs, in taxes, of social security and would also help lower our unemployment rate... I have nothing agianst ANYONE who legally came to the United States, and went through the HELL of buricratic red tape to become a legal US citizen, but why should they have to go through that and then loose a job to some border hopping illegal, who didn't do a DAMN thing to be here but hop the border and evade local law enforcement?? Does that seem right to you?

ANTHONYT

Thursday, May 11, 2006 2:29 AM

Hey Citizen,

Thanks for waking me up from my Piratenews meditations.

So... You've still got no information on Minutemen being arrested for any border crimes, eh? Nuts. At least your anectodal heresy is very compelling. That, and reports of anonymous vigilantes pistol whipping and murdering border crossers. Any of them Minutemen? Because if so, you might be able to find that report of "Minutemen arrested for murdering and pistol whipping border-crossers today." Let me know how that goes. Because if you find that report, I will TOTALLY SWITCH MY POSITION AND BERATE THE MINUTEMEN. That's right. Now hold me to it.

But, by a big and mighty stretch of the truth, you HAVE managed to show that the Minutemen are doing the job of Border Patrol... By watching for criminals, and reporting criminal activity to the authorities.

Citizen... I watch for criminals everywhere I go. I've even reported criminal activity to the police.

I had NO IDEA until you explained it to me that I was doing the job of law enforcement.

Does that make me a Vigilante?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

SEVENPERCENT

Thursday, May 11, 2006 2:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat2006:
Im not gunna try and get into the middle of this but all I wanna say is, to those of you who don't support the Minutemen, do you really wan't a bunch of Spanish "immagrints" (and I use the term loosly) to come into the United States without appling for a visa, and then start taking jobs away from much more skilled American workers?

If you've been following this thread, then you'll know that the two are entirely separate issues. The debate isn't even over whether or not mass immigration is a good thing, it's over the Minuteman Project. You have used a fallacy known as a Complex Question, sometimes confused with a False Dilemna, in which you present two different arguments combined as one (FDil. is giving two choices when in fact there are three).

I do not support the Minutemen, and after reading Soupcatcher's posted web article I'm even more convinced that they are degenerates. But that doesn't mean that i'm in favor of loose borders either (look above, for the post in which Anthony and I agreed that there should be more spent on border patrol).

Quote:
I have nothing agianst ANYONE who legally came to the United States, and went through the HELL of buricratic red tape to become a legal US citizen, but why should they have to go through that and then loose a job to some border hopping illegal, who didn't do a DAMN thing to be here but hop the border and evade local law enforcement?? Does that seem right to you?

Some of these folks escape horrid conditions and regimes to make it to the US. What happens to someone fleeing, oh, let's say El Salvador, only to get here and be turned away because they don't have a "viable skill" other than being willing to work slave wages to stay here. That's why it's a tough issue for me, and a lot of others. Crack down on corporations that hire them and loosen up the immigration process, and you may see some of those numbers of illgals come down.

------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V

Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.

REAVERMAN

Thursday, May 11, 2006 2:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:
SUCKERNOMICS...
blah... blah... blah...

Jesus Christ, PN, just give it the fuck up! No one cares what you think. No one believes what you say. Take your ignorant, racist, homophobic, anti-semitic bullshit elsewhere!

YOU ARE NOT WANTED HERE!!!

You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.

ANTHONYT

Thursday, May 11, 2006 2:56 AM

"Spanish "immagrints""

To my knowledge, there is no rash of people from Spain trying to sneak into the country illegally.

Mexico History - Inhabited for more than 20,000 years, the area produced great civilizations in AD 100-900, incl. the Olmec, Toltec, Mayan, and Aztec. The Aztec were conquered in 1521 by Spanish explorer H. Cortés, who established Mexico City on the site of the Aztec capital, Tenochtitlán. Francisco de Montejo conquered the remnants of Maya civilization in 1526, and Mexico became part of the viceroyalty of New Spain. In 1821 rebels negotiated a status quo independence from Spain, and in 1823 a new congress declared Mexico a republic.

So, just so you know, the Spanish landed, conquered the native people, and committed genocide.

Then the colony revolted against Spain, and gained independence.

Mexican history is a lot like American history. And just like the Mexicans aren't Spanish, Americans aren't British.

My Spanish ancestors did a similar thing to Cuba, where they wiped out the indiginous people. But Cuba gained independence from Spain (with some help) and now the people there are called Cubans, not Spanish.

The Spanish people live in a part of Europe called Spain. It's right on the west end. They are generally doing fine and don't try to illegally cross US borders.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

RUE

Thursday, May 11, 2006 3:02 AM

I checked AP, Reuters, CNN , NYTimes, WashPost and others and no major news organizating is reporting or carrying this story. Every reference (politicians decrying ...) goes back to the Bulletin from Ontario, California.

I'm going to wait for some confirmation.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

SOUPCATCHER

Thursday, May 11, 2006 3:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Gee, Citizen..why on Earth would they ever THINK of being armed ? Hmmmmm ( I know I mentioned this in my other post, but this gives a bit more detail to the matter. )

*******************************************

Gang will target Minuteman vigil on Mexico border

By Jerry Seper
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

NACO, Ariz. -- Members of a violent Central America-based gang have been sent to Arizona to target Minuteman Project volunteers, who will begin a monthlong border vigil this weekend to find and report foreigner sneaking into the United States, project officials say.
James Gilchrist, a Vietnam veteran who helped organize the vigil to protest the federal government's failure to control illegal immigration, said he has been told that California and Texas leaders of Mara Salvatrucha, or MS-13, have issued orders to teach "a lesson" to the Minuteman volunteers

I remember reading this article at the time and being surprised that the only attribution for this claim comes from Gilchrist himself. If you read the entire article ( http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20050328-125306-7868r.htm ) there is no additional mention of the threat beyond the paragraphs you included. It's basically an advertisement for the Minutemen (poor journalism, in my book) and information about MS-13 (good journalism, in my book). To me the relevant sections are, "project officials say," and "Gilchrist ... said he had been told." Which is really the same thing.

In doing a search to see if I could dig up the basis for this claim I found a number of different pages. They all reference one particular article from the La Voz de Aztlan website ( http://www.aztlan.net/salvatruchas_vs_minutemen.htm ). For those of you who don't know, La Voz de Aztlan could charitably be described as "loony fringe freaks with no influence." As far as I can tell Ebner Anivel Rivera-Paz is a leader in MS-13 and he is in jail. But aside from the Voice of Aztlan, there is no evidence that he ordered a hit on the Minutemen.

Now I'm not saying that the leader of MS-13 didn't order a hit. I just can't find any actual quote from a source that doesn't make me want to shower after reading some of their stuff. So at this point I'd say it's apocryphal. It does fit in nicely with the paranoia that many supremacist groups exhibit and use as rationalization for their offensive stance, however. So, to me, the important thing is that there is no doubt in my mind that Gilchrist and other Minutemen think MS-13 is after them. And have tailored their actions accordingly.

ETA: I want to add that the US Border Patrol did issue a warning to their employees that they had received information from the FBI that MS-13 was targetting Border Patrol agents. But there was nothing in that warning about MS-13 targetting civilian groups.

RUE

Thursday, May 11, 2006 3:22 AM

I deal with PN by scrolling to the links, some of which are interesting.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

SOUPCATCHER

Thursday, May 11, 2006 4:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
So... You've still got no information on Minutemen being arrested for any border crimes, eh? Nuts. At least your anectodal heresy is very compelling. That, and reports of anonymous vigilantes pistol whipping and murdering border crossers. Any of them Minutemen? Because if so, you might be able to find that report of "Minutemen arrested for murdering and pistol whipping border-crossers today." Let me know how that goes. Because if you find that report, I will TOTALLY SWITCH MY POSITION AND BERATE THE MINUTEMEN. That's right. Now hold me to it.

Hey AnthonyT,

The short answer is there have been no members of the Gilchrist/Simcox version of the Minutemen arrested in Arizona. From the accounts I've read they were kept under observation by observers from the ACLU. The observers, combined with the media, outnumbered the Minutemen by a good margin. There was also very little activity along that particular stretch of the border while the Minutemen were there. So not much opportunity. Basically, the entire operation was a publicity stunt. And it was extremely successful in that respect. It garnered a lot of positive media attention and shone a spotlight on the topic of illegal immigration. About all that can be said, from their own comments when they thought the media were not around, is that they fervently wanted to engage in illegal activity up to and including murder. Which is not a crime. Psychotic, yes. Criminal, no.

Other border watch groups and individuals, however, have not been under as much scrutiny. And Cochise County has seen a number of incidents over the past many years. Some of these were alleged to have been committed by people on their own property (I'm not sure why, but I tend to think of those incidents as different from the ones that happened along roads). Here's a couple of links just to give a flavor:
http://www.splcenter.org/center/splcreport/article.jsp?aid=33
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?sid=9

There's also ambiguity on just how many of these incidents are occurring due to a number of factors as outlined in this article:
http://www.azstarnet.com/dailystar/allheadlines/67826.php

So I feel confident saying that vigilante behavior is occurring along the border. And I also feel confident in the belief that members of the Simcox/Gilchrist Minutemen fantasize about engaging in all manner of unpleasantness. But members of that particular group have not, to my knowledge, been charged with any crime.

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