US Border Patrol gives Minutemen locations to Mexican Gov't. !!
POSTED BY: AURaptor
UPDATED: Monday, May 15, 2006 13:40
VIEWED: 14225
PAGE 2 of 9
Well, I have mixed feelings about the Minutemen.
When I first heard about them, I was certain that they would get themselves or someone else killed in short order. I was positive that they were racists looking for scapegoats and live targets.
However, the underwhelming reports of infractions by the Minutemen organization leads me to believe that they are either A) Largely Behaving themselves or B) Part of a conspiracy to conceal the truth about their Mexican border assassinations.
Well, there's just no evidence for B.
I've heard some laments that they put on camoflage and tour the border with Assault Rifles. Well, while it is legal to own and carry assault rifles, the tax on it is very expensive and the background check is a pain in the behind (For no good reason, as it takes very little time to check for Felonies in our electronic age), so I'll assume they are mostly carrying the civillian version of assault rifles. And so what? I can carry an AR-15 in my current state of residence and I can carry a pistol on my hip if I want. (God, I love Arizona!) Of course, I don't do these things because it tends to make people nervous. Point is, it's not illegal or even immoral to walk around armed.
So, what's the beef with the Minutemen? No assasinations of border crossers that I know of. No laws broken that I'm aware of. You'd think the news media would want to make such things public, as it'd be a juicy story.
Well, what about them being racist? I'm sure some of them are. I'm sure some of them aren't. I honestly think a good portion of them think that unlimited illegal immigration is 1) Criminal (which it is) and 2) Bad for the Economy (which it is.)
Okay, so what about the stupidity of having civilians patrol the borders? What about that? Isn't that stupid? Shouldn't civillians leave the patrolling to the professionals?
And I'd agree with you there... Except... There's this effective criminal deterrent called the Neighborhood Watch that is exactly the same thing. Concerned citizens who realize that the professionals can't or won't be everywhere, and who take a personal responsibility for ensuring the safety of their neighbors from criminal activity.
The main difference between the Neighborhood Watch and the Minutemen is that the Neighborhood Watch is typically encouraged and supported by Law Enforcement, while the Minutemen are condemned by Law Enforcement.
Which leads me to the next question... Why doesn't Customs set up a friendly relationship with a citizen assisted border watch agency so that they can get the volounteer manpower they need to watch the border adequately?
Sounds like that would be a Win-Win.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:
Originally posted by reaverman:Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Our fathers and grandfathers didn't defeat the Germans just so George W Bush could surrender to the Mexicans!!
AURaptor, I'm surprised. You seem to be channeling PN here. I agree with you that this is a serious problem, but this isn't a war. Migrants aren't coming here to ruin our country or bring down the government or somesuch. They are just people who, like most people, don't think long term. What they see are greener pastures than what they have at home. Most don't (or refuse to) see that what they are doing will eventually bring this country to its knees economically.
Basically, I agree with your facts, but take issue with your tone. We must never forget that if the shoe was on the other foot, it would be millions of illegal American immigrants fleeing across the border.
You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.
They're not MIGRANT workers. They're ILLEGALS. Sugar coat it all you want, but folks who come here w/ out any permission from the Gov't are here ILLEGALLY. Doesn't make them 'bad', 'evil' or 'inferior', but they are still illegal. And me pointing out that simple fact doesn't make me a 'racist' or a 'bigot'. I WANT more people to become Americans. America is a great place, and I want them to love it as much as I do, if not more. But how the hell can they respect this country when they ignored so many of it's basic laws?
You pass into Mexico w/ out the proper notification or proceedure, you'll end up in a Mexican jail. Do it twice, and you'll be there a VERY long time.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Okay, so what about the stupidity of having civilians patrol the borders? What about that? Isn't that stupid? Shouldn't civillians leave the patrolling to the professionals?
Anthony - Not stupid at all, but point of fact, it's an act of love. Love for this country. It's well beyond any discussion that the Border Patrol not only isn't up to the job of guarding the borders ( 15+ MILLION Illegals here, if not more ) but is actively trying to keep dedicated, concerned US citizens from defending thids country.
Doesn't seem very professional to me.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:Quote:
Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
Yeah, reaverman, I think that is what ticks me off the most about groups like the Minutemen. They're taking the easy way out by race-based scapegoating of those at the bottom.
And I agree with you here. I think they are just racists who are getting away with it by calling themselves 'patriots.' It's nothing more than vigilantism anyway, and I think it's an amazing stroke of luck that nothing bad has happened yet with them.
One of these days they are going to run into drug runners, or have a mix-up with US border patrol agents, or (God forbid) Mexican agents, and someone's going to get killed. They want to play Rambo, and I worry that there's going to be consequences.
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"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V
Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.
Gee, what do you call the Mexican Americans, citizens who are also part of this effort ? Are 'they' racist too? There's nothing RACIST about this in the least. You cross the border illegally, you SHOULD be caught. All the Minutemen are doing is watching the border and calling the authorities. It's about the sovereignty of this country and upholding the laws, and nothing about 'race'. The only time there's been any interaction between the illegals and Minutemen is when they've seen folks dying of thirst, then they offer them water and wait for the ambulance. Gee, how terrible, huh?
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Not stupid at all, but point of fact, it's an act of love. Love for this country.
Lot's of things have been excused with this sort of statement. Few of them good.
Quote:
It's well beyond any discussion that the Border Patrol not only isn't up to the job of guarding the borders ( 15+ MILLION Illegals here, if not more ) but is actively trying to keep dedicated, concerned US citizens from defending thids country.
Doesn't seem very professional to me.
Is this one of the things George Bush has done well or one of the things that's someone else’s fault or one of the things "that isn't really happening la la la I'm not listening"?
Quote:
There's nothing RACIST about this in the least. You cross the border illegally, you SHOULD be caught. All the Minutemen are doing is watching the border and calling the authorities.
If all they're doing is watching the border why are they armed? Why are they afraid for their safety? Its vigilantism, a bunch of Cowboys who think it's still the 1860's and they're "gonna get them varmints, yeehah! I'm a callin' you out bawy!".
They think they're John Wayne, well people used to call 'em Marion.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
If all they're doing is watching the border why are they armed? Why are they afraid for their safety? Its vigilantism, a bunch of Cowboys who think it's still the 1860's and they're "gonna get them varmints, yeehah! I'm a callin' you out bawy!".
They think they're John Wayne, well people used to call 'em Marion.
Just a note on the minutemen, as part of this discussion I took the liberty of visiting the Minutman Project's website. Under the heading Standard Operating Procedure, one of the first things it said was,
"3. Minutemen Observe, Report,Record, and Direct Border Patrol or other appropriate emergency or law enforcement agencies to suspected Illegal Aliens or Illegal Activities.
4. Minutemen do not verbally contact, physically gesture to or have any form of communications with suspected Illegal Aliens."
And later
"If challenged you will physically remove yourself from the situation"
Do your home work next time
P.S.
Here's the link
http://www.minutemanhq.com/hq/sop.php
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
There's nothing RACIST about this in the least. You cross the border illegally, you SHOULD be caught. All the Minutemen are doing is watching the border and calling the authorities. It's about the sovereignty of this country and upholding the laws, and nothing about 'race'.
Okay.
But the patrol also has drawn major interest on White supremacist Web sites and in their chat rooms. An Aryan Nation site links directly to the Minuteman Project home page with the words: "A call for action on part of ALL ARYAN SOLDIERS."
Whoops! How did that quote from an article get through your obvious Minuteman shield? Must have slipped across the border from reality-ville.
Quote:
The only time there's been any interaction between the illegals and Minutemen is when they've seen folks dying of thirst, then they offer them water and wait for the ambulance. Gee, how terrible, huh?
According to regular law enforcement officials and actual, trained border agents - yes, yes it is.
The Border Patrol and other federal officials have asked civilians not to interfere with undocumented immigrants or law enforcement, saying they endanger themselves and others.
"When people act as vigilantes, they put themselves at risk, they put other law-abiding citizens at risk, and they put law enforcement at risk," he said. "It's not a nuanced issue here. We want citizens to assist law enforcement by calling in when they see a crime, by giving us information if they see suspicious activity. But no one in law enforcement, for example, is asking anyone to carry weapons into a bank and sit on a stool and wait for a bank robbery.
"That's the distinction here. These people are putting themselves and others in harm's way."
http://www.azcentral.com/specials/special03/articles/0305extremists05.
html
The founder, Jim Gilchrist, already has admitted in several interviews that there have been armed encounters that ended in violent exchanges, including one that involved acid. And the fact that they are out there "giving medical aid," as you claim they did, violates their supposed primary rule about having no direct contact with any illegals, as was just posted by someone else.
{EDITED TO ADD: This was the post I referred to, by StillFlyin:
Quote:END EDIT}
4. Minutemen do not verbally contact, physically gesture to or have any form of communications with suspected Illegal Aliens."
So which is it? They are nonviolent patrols, or they are armed people interacting with illegals? Can't have it both ways.
------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V
Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.
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"The founder, Jim Gilchrist, already has admitted in several interviews that there have been armed encounters that ended in violent exchanges, including one that involved acid. And the fact that they are out there "giving medical aid," as you claim they did, violates their supposed primary rule about having no direct contact with any illegals, as was just posted by someone else. So which is it? They are nonviolent patrols, or they are armed people interacting with illegals? Can't have it both ways."
Sure you can, 7%. It's called judgement. You know, someone's f*cking dying, and even though the Prime Directive says to let them die, you just can't in good conscience sit there and let it happen. So you beam in an away team with blankets and food and hope you survive the Federation court-martial.
Didn't you learn anything from Star Trek?
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Anthony, I know you were being partly facetious (and I did learn a lot from Trek - like how to mack on hot green women if any should ever show up at my door - assuming my wife gives the ok). But my bigger point is that even when offering aid, untrained professionals (just because some are retired military doesn't mean they know what they are doing in regards to dealing with the system or people) with guns could do more harm than good.
What if it's a gang faking a sick member to ambush them? The Minutemen have had several threats from Mexican cartels to do just that. What if they have a Rambo-type who sees a threat from someone (who may only be protecting a relative from babbling strangers who showed up with guns) and starts firing, killing an immigrant (and no, crossing the border should not be a death sentence, and you're morally bankrupt if you think it should be). What happens if confusion erupts and a minuteman is shot by Mexican agents, or Border Patrol agents by mistake? Lawsuit? For gettting yourself in the way of trained professionals doing their job?
So much could go wrong. Even if their motives were pure - which the case may be that it is for some if not most- there is too much room for disaster. That's why vigilantism is frowned upon.
------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V
Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.
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Quote:
Originally posted by StillFlyin:
Just a note on the minutemen, as part of this discussion I took the liberty of visiting the Minutman Project's website. Under the heading Standard Operating Procedure, one of the first things it said was,
"3. Minutemen Observe, Report,Record, and Direct Border Patrol or other appropriate emergency or law enforcement agencies to suspected Illegal Aliens or Illegal Activities.
4. Minutemen do not verbally contact, physically gesture to or have any form of communications with suspected Illegal Aliens."
And later
"If challenged you will physically remove yourself from the situation"
Do your home work next time
P.S.
Here's the link
http://www.minutemanhq.com/hq/sop.php
Do my homework, that's funny.
You seem to be under the mistaken belief I didn't know any of this. You also seem to be under the mistaken belief that some words on a website means anything to a bunch of tooled up locals.
So they need firearms to observe from a distance because...
Are they those new mobile phones with built in gun attachment so they can ring the authorities perhaps? With your obvious greater grasp of the situation I'm sure you have all the answers.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.
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