Is This Legal?
POSTED BY: SoulOfSerenity
UPDATED: Friday, April 7, 2006 22:12
VIEWED: 6590
PAGE 1 of 1
So I need some advice. Call me gullible for believing this, but can someone read this letter (I got it in the mail) and tell me if this is legal and if it has a potential of working?
Quote:
Greetings: I am a retired attorney. A few years ago, a man came to me with a letter. He asked me to verify the fact this was legal to do. I told him I would review it and get back to him. When I read the letter that my client brought me, I thought it was some “off-the-wall” idea to make money. A week and a half later we met in my office to discuss the issue. I told him the letter he originally brought to me was not 100% legal. My client then asked me to alter it to make it perfectly legal. I asked him to make one small change to the letter.
I was still curious about the letter, so he explained to me how it works. I thought it seemed like a long shot, so I decided against participating. Before my client left, I asked him to keep me updated on his results. About two months later, he called me to tell me he had received over $800,000 in cash. I didn’t believe him, so he asked me to try this idea and find out for myself. I thought about it for a couple of days and decided I really didn’t have anything to lose, so I asked him for a copy of the letter. I followed the instructions exactly, mailed 200 copies, and sure enough the money started coming in! It arrived slowly at first, but after about three weeks, I was getting more mail than I could open in one day. After about three months, the money stopped coming. I kept a precise record of the earnings, and in the end, it totaled $978,493! I could hardly believe it. I met my friend for lunch to find out exactly how it worked. He told me that there are quite a few similar letters around, but this one is different because there are six names at the end of the letter, not five like some others. This fact results in your name being in far more returns. The other fact was the help I gave him, to make sure the whole thing was legal, since no one wants to take the risk of doing something illegal.
By now you are surely curious to know what small changes to make. If you sent a letter like this one out, in order to be completely legal, you must sell something in order to receive a dollar in return. So when you send a dollar to each of these names on the list, you must include these words, “Please put me on your mailing list” and include your name and address. This is the key to the program. The item you receive for the dollar you send to the six people below the letter.
At the time I first tried this idea, I was earning a good living as a lawyer. Every one in the legal profession will tell you that there is a lot of stress that comes with the job. I told myself if this thing worked out, I would retire from my practice and play golf. I decided to try the letter again, but this time I sent 500 copies. Three months later, I totaled $2, 341, 178!
Here are a few reasons a person might give for not trying the program:
>Some people think they can never make a lot of money with something simple.
>Some are afraid they will be ridiculed for trying.
>Some dream of large sums of money, but do nothing to actually achieve it.
>Some are plain lazy.
>Some are afraid of losing their investment. They think this program was designed to
beat them out of a few dollars. The system works if you try it. But you must follow the
simple instructions exactly, and in less than three months, you will receive $800,000
GUARANTEED!
>Keep what you are doing to yourself for a while. Many will tell you it won’t work and
will try to talk you out of you dreams. Let them know of your success after it works.
Instructions:
1. Immediately send each of the six people on the list at the end of this letter $1.00.
wrap the dollar bill in a note saying “Please add me to your mailing list” and
include your name and address.
2. Remove the name next to the #1 on the list and move the rest of the names up one position (#2 becomes #1, #3 becomes #2 etc.) then place your name in the #6 position.NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SoulOfSerenity:
Call me gullible for believing this
You're gullible
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It's a pyramid scheme and it's illegal in Florida.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Appears they've cancelled the show and we're still here. What does that make us?"
"Big damn junkies, Sir!"
"Ain't we just."
http://karenallover.blogspot.com/
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Well, you know the saying: "If it looks to good to be true..." Couldn't point out exactly wherein the scam lies, but I'd bet there's one in there somewhere :)
________________________________________________
You can take my hope when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers.
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SoulofSerenity,
I agree with the others, this is illegal.
My Grandma had an old saying and I always apply it to situations like this.. .and believe me because I'm a business woman I get lots of these things and approached by lots of folks about things like this.... she said..
"If it seems to good to be true, it's not true!"
My Grandma's advice has never steered me wrong.
ETA: Nuclearday and I have heard the same old sayings...
" You hold. Hold til I get back." Mal
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It's leagel but then again back out of you drive way is illeagel. They can take your money all they want, and they really don't have to give you anything back. I used to work for a company that sent letters to old people asking them to send $1,000 and one person out of the run would get $12,000. They would sent these letter to just about every elderly person in this country and they would do it every 3 months. It's leagel but just plain mean to pray on soneone that doesn't know any better. I would not get involved with anyone just asking for money. I have recieved a ton of emails lately saying the same thing most from other countries so our laws don't even apply. Here an expample of where our laws don't apply: Gambling is illeagal in New York. If I open a place where people come to play poker I would get arrested, but I can turn on my computer and play anytime I want. They aren't run out of Atlantic City Or Las Vegas becuase if they were there could be trouble. These Gambling Sites which advertive on TV as Non-gambling sites take you to other sites that allow you to gamble for real money. PartyPoker.net takes you to PartyPoker.com. So I think you better know what your getting into before you send anything especially money.
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I believe that pyramid schemes and chain letters are illegal in every state in the USA
**********************************************
watch the R. Tam Session vids: http://www.hittarivertam.nu/
and buy the 'Serenity' comics published by Dark Horse
have you checked out this thread?:
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=15816
and listen to 'I'm Going To See Serenity':
http://music.podshow.com/music/listeners/artistdetails.php?BandHash=a0
c814e1229742ce77ed4497cbf4631c
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I do what would best be referred to as online counseling for people who has suffered emotional stress from these types of scams. It is most often young people who couldn’t afford college, got pregnant young, in debt up to their ears, or are generally lazy, but at least 40% are just some average person who resist. Most people lose their savings and dig a deeper hole for themselves by falling for these scams.
The most popular scam at the moment is the mailing one trying to get people who can’t afford cars, have kids, or just want to stay home. The way it works is you get money by getter other people started in the program you are in. It is really very silly, mailing list are harder to come by since no one wants to be on one. While the mailing ones don’t tend to be as dangerous or time consuming I deal with a lot of people who just can’t give up on the hope of fast money. Lots of people fall back into it after starting it; saying that this one is different that the one before. It is a viscous cycle that doesn’t stop once you start. I have met lots of people who tried and found places to live for plenty that failed but I have never met anyone who got more that they spent.
The second most popular and run by men masquerading as business owners. The most powerful is DSMAX (Direct Sales to the MAX). This one send people emotionally over the edge, and I’ve people lose wives, and husbands because of their obsession with succeeding. They send people out to sell crap and have them working on a commission basis only. It is competitive, and demanding. People find themselves spending more time at work than anywhere else. The “owner” is great at giving speeches but if you stay long enough he will repeat them. They do family exercises and make everyone feel welcome, a way of lolling people in. DSMAX sales everything from candles to Child safety tapes and they ruin lives.
Lots of people get out of these scams before it is too late but many, many people get out and dive into another one thinking it is different some how. It isn’t. But some don’t get out and lose families, cars, houses, and it is really sad.
I won’t tell you don’t because in my experience that just causes people to hold on tighter to the dream and get hurt more. Money, can be replace once someone loses that, but the emotional damage is hard to explain and hard to deal with. That’s why I do what I do for free; they don’t need to spend any more money after all.
Here is a website were believers and none believers talk and argue. This is a decision only you can make.
http://groups.msn.com/DSMAXTheAftermath
~~River: Bible's broken. Contradictions, false logics. Doesn't make sense.~~
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The legality of this is seriously in question and as that guy has transmitted funds across state lines, it is probably now a Federal Crime. Not to mention the fact that this is highly unethical. Hope he avoids a "pound you in the ass" Federal prison sentence. 
that guy
You Could Be Prosecuted:
Sometimes posters claim that these schemes are completely legal, claiming they are mailing list or recipe services. These posters may even cite title 18, sections 1302, 1341, 1342, and 1343 of the "Postal Lottery Laws." These sections are part of the U.S. Code. I'm sure that none of these people have actually read them, because they do not authorize pyramid schemes. In fact, these are the very laws that make pyramid schemes illegal. (Take a minute to read 18 USC 1302, 1341, 1342, and 1343 for yourself.)
They may also claim that their e-mails are legal under "S. 1618" or "H.R. 3113." These were bills in the U.S. Congress that failed to become law. They have no legal effect.
Pyramid schemes have long been illegal when conducted by mail in the United States or Canada. The same laws apply to Internet chain letters if the mails are used at any point in the scheme.
The latest twist in these schemes is to claim to be selling something, such as reports, mailing lists, or recipes. The U.S. Postal Service warns:
Do not be fooled if the chain letter is used to sell inexpensive reports on credit, mail order sales, mailing lists, or other topics. The primary purpose is to take your money, not to sell information. "Selling" a product does not ensure legality.
[A couple of ideas for Americans wishing to report pyramid schemes: If the e-mail asks you to send money through the mail, you may report it using the U.S. Postal Inspection Service Mail Fraud Complaint Form, e-mail fraud@uspis.gov, or report it via snail mail to
Postal Inspector
c/o Postmaster
Your City, Your State, Your Zip
Kuang Zhe De 
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I have already posted but I wanted to clarify something. This is not a pyramid scheme. Pyramid schemes are much more involved and usually consist of someone “owning” a business and you being in contact with others. This is a Chain Scheme or a Chain Letter Scheme. While they are both illegal and dangerously addictive, they are very different and attract different types of people, but they both end with someone not having money they did.
~~River: Bible's broken. Contradictions, false logics. Doesn't make sense.~~
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Quote:
Originally posted by KuangZheDe:
The legality of this is seriously in question and as you have transmitted funds across state lines, it is probably now a Federal Crime. Not to mention the fact that this is highly unethical. Hope you avoid a "pound you in the ass" Federal prison sentence.
Okay, let me clear something up, because I'm now just a bit offended:
I have not posted this letter to get people to fall for this. Anyone on this site that knows me knows I am respectable person, and I don't pull crap like that. I haven't done anything with this letter yet. All I wanted was some opinions from people that I hold in high respect about the legitimacy of this. That's all. I wanted advice, not condemnation.
______________________
Soul, Security Chief of the Sereni-Tree, Captain of Destiny.
Mantichorus: "So is there a reason they call you 'Soul'?"
Soul (after a long pause): "Yeah. Because I have one."
http://havenofsouls.livejournal.com/
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yeah that was my mistake, I apologize and realized what i did immediatly and edited it, my bad
Kuang Zhe De
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Quote:
Originally posted by KuangZheDe:
yeah that was my mistake, I apologize and realized what i did immediatly and edited it, my bad
Heh. Thanks. No worries. This letter is going to get filed in the circular file can now...
______________________
Soul, Security Chief of the Sereni-Tree, Captain of Destiny.
Mantichorus: "So is there a reason they call you 'Soul'?"
Soul (after a long pause): "Yeah. Because I have one."
http://havenofsouls.livejournal.com/
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I did this with chocolate when I was about 10, I got 2 chocolate bars when I was supposed to get 36. (Plus they were only freddos).
There needs to be a huge/impossible number of people to become involved in the scheme after you for each person to get 800 000 dollars when you are only sending 6 dollars each. Pretty quickly you run out of people who want to take part.
...................
Well, my sister's a ship... we had a
complicated childhood
.................
I wear the cheese. It does not wear me.
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I remember getting similiar things in my MSN mail,I delete them.
Yup Serenity, bag that letter. As to the DSMAX Leaf, I actually did that. It's posted as Marketing and played up as a real job.
I remember the first time I saw the ad in the wanted section, I didn't know it was sales, and I never knew I'd be going out with boxes of crap to sell to anyone who'd listen. Anyone who knows me could tell you I'm not a great salespreson. I feel like I'm acting and tense up and fail miserably. But they push for the hard sell, don't offer two, you won't make money selling two, make deals and go for the close. It was scary and intimidating, but I learned a lot.
One of the things they tell you is to say these are the last ones left, after this there aren't anymore to buy so if your interested you better buy now. We don't tell them that there's a warehouse full of this very limited crap.
And let me tell you, it's hard enough lugging boxes of this stuff down the street trying to get people to buy and not look pathetic, but doing it in high tempetures, or worse, rainy days. I had dropped one of my boxes in a puddle and it almost made me cry, but I kept at it because I'm notorious for quitting jobs that seem too hard and I didn't want to dissapoint my family.
And the bosses are, I found out to my chagrin, very much like a Jekel and Hyde. My employer was great at giving the motivational speeches, Your all sellers, your all great, your going to go out there and make money, I believe in you.
NOTE: I realized later that the Pyramid Scheme is alive and well here, because for every item you sell the one above you gets a commission, the one above them gets a commission and so forth. So it was no wonder he was so gung-ho to have us push, he was getting a percentage of all our sales. The person who was training me (2 of them actually, young colledge kids, like Leaf said, who wanted an easier way to make money) told me right to my face that if I didn't meet my quota and get the bell rung (that's to show I had gotten the needed amount to make my first commission, I kid you not. Apparantly in this biz there is a quota to make, otherwise all that work you did slaving and selling amounts to bubkis. But they still make money. Fancy that.)
Anyhoo, if I didn't meet it no prob, they watched out for each other and helped me meet it by selling the items for me and letting me take the credit. I was surprised and a little frightened, what if the boss found out, wouldn't he be mad? Nope, they said it was something they all did to help new people, and he'd done it himself. He would'nt be mad. WRONG.
I did it for a week, I tried, I really did, I was even getting a feel for selling. But I take rejection personnaly (which is why I don't do sales or telemarketing) and it was starting to get to me. That, and the motivational meetings we had before we went out. Can we say "cult creepy"?
So I went to the boss, told him I'm sorry, I tried but the job wasn't for me. That's where Hyde came in and that jovial genial persona turned ugly, and I gotta tell you, I was scared. Bosses may sometimes be frighteneing, but this guy SCARED me.
Suddenly he went on about how dissapointed he was in me, how he gave me a chance when I promised to give him 120%, how he believed in me and how I let him down, then he brought up the items my two trainers sold for me in order to meet the quota and how he didn't like cheaters in his force and how he let it slip by because he thought I'd make up for it and..... He basically was telling me to my face I was a lying, lazy such and such and he was disgusted with me. If you saw his face you'd see, there was disgust. Freaked me out, and confused the hell out of me. I didn't think someones personality could change in so few seconds. I defended myself and tried to tell him it wasn't my idea, and he said he'd look into it but in the end he said they were my items for me to sell. I then mentioned that someone said he'd done the same thing to support his trainee and he said, to my face, HE would never do something so dishone
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It's better for everyone in humanity if you stay out of such a scheme. I would recommend you contact the Better Business Bureau and report the scheme. They're online at www.bbb.org
These folks keep tabs on shady business practices and can help build cases against fraudlent schemes that prey on nice people.
No contact goes unnoticed and there's also a lot of great consumer information there. Want to find out if a lending or debt consolidation company is running a palms up operation? They're a great source to go to.
This public service announcement brought to you by the Coalition of Browncoats Who Don't Want Other Browncoats to Lose Their Cashy Money to a Bunch of 
Hope this helps.
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Better Business Bureau is a good place ot start. When I first got of college, I ran into the same job and these souless scum sucking dirt bags put on a pretty face. I was selling products but the fact was that I was being exploited, and the company was asking me to exploit people I knew, neighbors, and the like. The problem with reporting companies like this, is that when under the gun, these sons of bitches just change their name. While eventually it is tracked and reported again, it is a vicious cycle of these bastards always staying one step ahead of "appearing" to be ethical. Thats why I currently working on an off shore company and email address called www.break.their.kneecaps.com (not a real site, yet 
. The goal, of course, is to outsource local "Jaynes" in your area, for a small fee, to beat the living hell out these asses.
Kuang Zhe De
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Quote:
Originally posted by SoulOfSerenity:
So I need some advice. Call me gullible for believing this,
As a lawyer let me give you some advise.
If it seems too good to be true, don't be a sucker.
You can't get something for nothing.
You get what you pay for.
You reap what you sow.
Don't count your chickens until the cows come in.
These are not great legal maxims. Its called common sense.
H
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One dollar each, stamps, envelopes, photocopying, gasoline, risk of car crash, risk of traffic tickets, hours of time, paper cuts... sounds like an expensive investment to participate in chain letters. Plus the possibility of attorney fees and criminal penalties, including imprisonment.
Quote:
Ponzi scheme.
Charles A. Ponzi (ca. 1882-1949), Italian-born American swindler.
an investment swindle in which early investors are paid with sums obtained from later ones in order to create the illusion of profitability.
-Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law ©1996
http://dictionary.lp.findlaw.com
Ponzi scheme.
A fraudulent investment scheme in which money contributed by later investers generates artificially high dividends for the original invetors, whose example attracts even larger investments. Money from the new investors is used directly to repay or pay interest to old investors, usually without any opeartion or revenue-producing activity other than the continual raising of new funds. This scheme takes its name from Charles Ponzi, who in the late 1920s was convicted for fraudulent schemes he conducted in Boston. PYRAMID SCHEME.
-Blacks Law Dictionary - 7th Ed
pyramid scheme.
A property-distribution scheme in which a participant pays for the chance to receivecompensation for introducing new persons to the scheme, as well as when those new persons themselves introduce participants. Pyramid schemes are illegal in most states. Also termed endless-chain scheme, chain-referral scheme, multilevel distribution program, pyramid distribution plan.
-Blacks Law Dictionary - 7th Ed
It's a fraudulent Ponzi Scheme, just like Social Security, income tax, property tax, Amway and MLM (the subcontract "training" part - retail sales to non-members are ok), all insurance companies, all banks, all churches, Wall Street, and pension schemes - especially govt pensions. Greedy suckers and gamblers make good slaves.
Quote:
scheme.
1. A systematic plan; a connected or orderly arrangement, especially of related concepts; legislative scheme. 2. An artful plot or plan, usually to deceive others; a scheme to defraud creditors.
-Blacks Law Dictionary - 7th Ed
When I lived in England, the British Govt and British media ALWAYS referred to govt programs as "SCHEMES". At least they were honest about their dishonesty.
Quote:
fraud.
1 a: any act, expression, omission, or concealment calculated to deceive another to his or her disadvantage
specif
: a misrepresentation or concealment with reference to some fact material to a transaction that is made with knowledge of its falsity or in reckless disregard of its truth or falsity and with the intent to deceive another and that is reasonably relied on by the other who is injured thereby
-Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law ©1996
actual fraud.
: fraud committed with the actual intent to deceive and thereby injure another
(called also fraud in fact).
-Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law ©1996
constructive fraud.
conduct that is considered fraud under the law despite the absence of an intent to deceive because it has the same consequences as an actual fraud would have and it is against public interests (as because of the violation of a public or private trust or confidence, the breach of a fiduciary duty, or the use of undue influence).
-Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law ©1996
mail fraud.
: fraud committed by use of the postal service esp. as described in title 18 section 1341 of the U.S. Code.
-Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law ©1996
So you could be arrested and prosecuted for federal mail fraud, despite your ignorance of the law. Even for local letters. Never mind that the "US Post Office" is a PRIVATE corporation - just ask the postal MANAGERS and they will confess this fact. This would be a valid legal defense to alleged mail fraud, but I've not checked if it's ever been decided at an appellate level.
Quote:
intrinsic fraud.
: fraud (as by the use of false or forged documents, false claims, or perjuredNOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Using the US mail for a Ponzi (pyramid) scheme is illegal at the Federal level and prolly in your state too. Check this out.
Quote:
A deliberate effort is made, in many cases, to confuse prospective victims with regard to the distinction between a legitimate “multi-level marketing” (MLM) scheme, and an illegitimate pyramid scheme. I'm no fan of MLM; I regard even “legitimate” MLM schemes as ethically questionable at best. But there is a vital distinction. The important distinction is this: With a legitimate MLM, you have a real product, that is of significant value in and of itself. Most of your profit comes from the sale of this product to people who will use this product according to its own value and usefulness, and not just try to sell it to someone below them. Though MLM encourages you to build a “downline”, so that you can make some profit by taking a cut of the sales made by those below you, you do not need to recruit even a single person below you in the pyramid in order to profit; you can profit by selling the product itself, even to people who have no interest in joining the MLM. In those pyramid schemes which try to pass themselves off as MLM, your “product” is something that has very little inherent value, if any at all, beyond the requirement that one must buy it from you in order to join your “downline”.
http://members.impulse.net/~thebob/Pyramid.html
---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.
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Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:
Every US citizen has a God-given Constitutionally guaranteed Natural Right to travel
Nobody's stopping you. You can walk as long and as far as your feet will carry you. But if you want to drive...I'll need to see a liscense and proof of insurance.
H
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:
Every US citizen has a God-given Constitutionally guaranteed Natural Right to travel
Nobody's stopping you. You can walk as long and as far as your feet will carry you. But if you want to drive...I'll need to see a liscense and proof of insurance.
H
In Tennessee, insurance is only required by statute AFTER a person crashes a car, THEN fails to pay for any financial damages. But Gangsta Govt makes massive profits off this scam. So do insurance rackets, where insurance CEOs routinely pay themselves personal salaries of $100-million/year or more. Warren Buffet owns GEICO - Govt Employees Insurance Company. He's reportedly the 2 richest person in USA, with net worth of 25-billion. (Buffet is a Jewish homosexual child molester, according to million-dollar trial testimony by witnesses for Senator John DeCamp. Buffet hid in the bunker with Jr Bush on 9/11/2001, while "coincidentally" playing golf with WTC CEOs at Strategic Air Command HQ in Omaha Nebraska, on the morning of 9/11. Buffet owns NetJets, owner of the bizjet shadowing United Airlines Flight 93 that was shot down on 9/11. Buffet held the, er, hand of Nazi gay porn star Arnold Schwarzennegger, on their trip together to Jewish Lord Rothschild's palace in England, for permission to win governor of the California colony for the German British Empire.)
http://images.scotsman.com/2002/09/25/2509ARNB.JPG
Schwarzenegger flanked by Warren Buffet, left, and Lord Jacob Rothschild, at stately Waddesdon Manor. But has the actor set his sights on a house of a whiter hue?
http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=869&id=1063282002
The current expert on the Right to Travel is Carl Miller, a professional ex-serial killer employed by Gangsta Govt. His audiotapes detail this successful argument in court. I'm sure Gangsta Govt has poured massive resources into attempts to shut down his legitimate citation of US Supreme Court cases. Do a search on www.Google.com to find transcripts and MP3 files on Miller's lectures. Miller is EXPERT at oral argument of memorized case citations, which is the hardest part of being a "trial lawyer". No matter how good a person's written arguements are, appeals courts ONLY read the oral transcript. Judges and prosecutors know this, so they routinely interrupt defendants, and refuse to allow oral arguments in "their" courts, to subvert the transcript on appeal. Most pro se's don't know how to make an Offer of Proof (how to tell a judge and prosecutor to sit down and shut up). If that doesn't work, prosecutors and judges often extort the court reporters to purjur themselves, to censor the transcripts.
Quote:
VIDEO DOWNLOAD: Institute on the Constitution
The 2004 Libertarian Presidential Candidate, Michael Badnarik, attorney at law, teaches his famous class about the Constitution. If you don't know the difference between a right and a privilege, this is a must see! Is the right to travel by driving an automobile a privilege or a right?
www.archive.org/details/Michael_Badnarik
If driver licenses really were mandatory, then why can ANY person "practice law without a license", which is allegedly a criminal misdemeanor, too. It's called "Power of Attorney-In-Fact". POA IS SO POWERFUL, THAT NO "LICENSED LAWYER" IS ALLOWED TO "PRACTICE LAW" IN ANY COURT, UNTIL AFTER HE GETS A POA SIGNED BY HIS OR HER CLIENT. THE POA IS THE REAL "LICENSE TO PRACTICE LAW". Law school students routinely represent defendants and plaintiffs in criminal and civil courts. A "law license" is nothing but a court order signed by a supreme court judge, and is merely a blanket "admission to the bar". ANY PERSON can be "admitted to the bar" in any court, by saying the magic words "I'm represeting myself pro se". PRO SE IS A LICENSE TO PRACTICE LAW IN ANY COURT. That's why those 2 words are never taught to the sheeple in school or on TeeVee.
Quote:
pro se.
One who represents himself in a court proceeding without the assistance of a lawyer.. AlNOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:
In Gideon vs Wainwright, pro se Gideon WON in US Supreme Court, with appeals hand-written in pencil on prison paper. He won the right to counsel for indigent defendants, setting legal precedent for all Americans. His best-selling book, "Gideon's Trumpet", is a must-read for trial lawyers.
'Gideon's Trumpet' was written by Anthony Lewis, a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist who was famous for his coverage of the Supreme Court in the 1960's.
Never read the book, good movie though. If you can stay awake the whole way through you'll notice that Mr. Gideon was given a lawyer once his appeals were accepted. The lawyer was none other then future Supreme Court Justice Abe Fortas who went on to successfully argue on Mr. Gideon's behalf in front of the Supreme Court.
For the record, PN can bluster all he wants about practicing law without a license. If he walks into a courtroom he has the right to represent himself, pro se, same as anybody does, but without a license he will not be allowed to practice on anyone else's behalf. The divider between the gallery and the tables and bench in the front of a courtroom (with a little gate usually) is called a "bar", only witnesses, defendants, and officers of the court are allowed "past the bar" for trial. Hence the big test we all take and PN would fail is called the "bar exam" and once we've passed the bar we can pass the bar.
Although to be honost, I know a lot of lawyers who can't pass up a bar. Oddly, that was Gideon's problem too. He was tried for robbing a bar that he frequented.
H
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Originally posted by Hero:Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:
In Gideon vs Wainwright, pro se Gideon WON in US Supreme Court, with appeals hand-written in pencil on prison paper. He won the right to counsel for indigent defendants, setting legal precedent for all Americans. His best-selling book, "Gideon's Trumpet", is a must-read for trial lawyers.
'Gideon's Trumpet' was written by Anthony Lewis, a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist who was famous for his coverage of the Supreme Court in the 1960's.
Never read the book, good movie though. If you can stay awake the whole way through you'll notice that Mr. Gideon was given a lawyer once his appeals were accepted. The lawyer was none other then future Supreme Court Justice Abe Fortas who went on to successfully argue on Mr. Gideon's behalf in front of the Supreme Court.
For the record, PN can bluster all he wants about practicing law without a license. If he walks into a courtroom he has the right to represent himself, pro se, same as anybody does, but without a license he will not be allowed to practice on anyone else's behalf. The divider between the gallery and the tables and bench in the front of a courtroom (with a little gate usually) is called a "bar", only witnesses, defendants, and officers of the court are allowed "past the bar" for trial. Hence the big test we all take and PN would fail is called the "bar exam" and once we've passed the bar we can pass the bar.
Although to be honost, I know a lot of lawyers who can't pass up a bar. Oddly, that was Gideon's problem too. He was tried for robbing a bar that he frequented.
H
Yes, everyone wanted a piece of poor Gideon, who was not a lerned man of letters. I bet his attorneys profited greatly, as did his publisher and producer. Gideon was found Not Guilty of robbing that bar, and was in fact innocent, if my memory from 30 years ago is correct. Tho he admitted that he did perp other crimes, just not THAT crime. Cops routinely grab the wrong criminal, and prosecutors, judges and defense lawyers don't care.
The key to Gideon was common sense. This is the key to all Constitutional arguments - "simplicity". The Constitution is still the controlling document for every other book in a law library. Gideon refused to waiver his Constitutional right to DUE PROCESS. Any defendant can likewise refuse to sign away their Constitutional rights and "civil rights" (statutory rights), in a civil contract signed under duress to a judge. Gideon refused to give up, even after he got hammered by many cops, prosecutors and judges. Gideon proved himself a "good American". I just hope he was able to turn his life around after winning the burden of success.
It's like Miranda, a confessed killer, winning for every American "the right to remain silent". (Is that where Joss got that name?) Miranda was subsequently found guilty of murder, after remand for retrial, but without using the improper confession. Why does the US S Ct only cherrypick cases for predetermined precedent, from CRIMINAL defendants, not purely innocent ones? There are plenty of innocent people rotting in jails and Death Row in USA today. I find that ODD.
I do concede that attorneys-at-LAW have cornered the market on use of the word LAWYER, which might encompass the term "PRACTICING law". I'm not talking about "practicing", I'm talking about representing another person based on common-law right to contract, as guaranteed by the US Constitution's "Contract Clause".
As for the alleged chain letter:
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Greetings: I am a retired attorney. A few years ago, a man came to me with a letter. He asked me to verify the fact this was legal to do...
He/she wrote "attorney", not "attorney-at-law". In fact, the single word "attorney" is misleading, since it specifies neither attorney-at-law nor attorney-in-fact, both of which require a contractural agreement in writing before the attorney actually has "power of attorney". Is this alleged person actually a "lawyer/attorney-at-law", fo
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