About Spike's Soul

POSTED BY: Haken
UPDATED: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 13:32
VIEWED: 12486
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BOBKNAPTOR

Thursday, June 27, 2002 9:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
So anyway, now there are two of them. Wonder if this is the start of a trend?

Two what? do you mean Vamps with Souls?

A vampire with a soul? Oh my god, how lame is that?

PANDORA

Sunday, June 30, 2002 4:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bobknaptor:
"Fru-its of the De-vil. EEville"?

Tell me where this quote has from! My roommate from three years ago and I bandied this quote back and forth for a year, never remembering where it was from!

My money was always on Kids in the Hall or a Mike Myers movie- she always insisted it was Dana Carvey's Church Lady.

HELP!

Pandora
I can't effing believe that someone else knows that shiznat...

"Mrs. Krabappel and Principal Skinner were in the closet making babies and I saw one of the babies
and the baby looked at me." -Ralph Wiggum

BOBKNAPTOR

Monday, July 1, 2002 8:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Pandora:
Quote:
Originally posted by bobknaptor:
"Fru-its of the De-vil. EEville"?

Tell me where this quote has from! My roommate from three years ago and I bandied this quote back and forth for a year, never remembering where it was from!

My money was always on Kids in the Hall or a Mike Myers movie- she always insisted it was Dana Carvey's Church Lady.

HELP!

It is indeed Mike Myers... it's from "So I Married an Axe Murderer" when he is on the first date with the girl he eventually marries. He follows this up by saying "for example, how many people have you brutally murdered?" to which she replies "Brutal is a subjective word. What is brutal to one person may seem perfectly reasonable to someone else."

hehe

It's true, I am a font of worthless movie/tv/music trivia. I should go on Beat the Geeks. I keep thinking they need to have a Buffy the Vampire Slayer guest geek. hehe.

Buck up you. You kill the best. Go you. Kill, kill.

PANDORA

Tuesday, July 2, 2002 4:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bobknaptor:

It is indeed Mike Myers... it's from "So I Married an Axe Murderer" when he is on the first date with the girl he eventually marries. He follows this up by saying "for example, how many people have you brutally murdered?" to which she replies "Brutal is a subjective word. What is brutal to one person may seem perfectly reasonable to someone else."

hehe

It's true, I am a font of worthless movie/tv/music trivia. I should go on Beat the Geeks. I keep thinking they need to have a Buffy the Vampire Slayer guest geek. hehe.

Buck up you. You kill the best. Go you. Kill, kill.

Bob... you have now joined the ranks of Haken as my hero! I can't believe I didn't fricken remember that... I need to own this movie, because I've already spent more than the cost of it on rental fees.

And never fear about being a font of worthless trivia... I'm pretty fonty myself.

You're not just a goddess, but an uber-goddess!

Pandora
I wub bob!

"Mrs. Krabappel and Principal Skinner were in the closet making babies and I saw one of the babies and the baby looked at me." -Ralph Wiggum

BOBKNAPTOR

Tuesday, July 2, 2002 4:40 PM

... She wubs me!

Yeah, definitely buy it. It's worth owning. I've seen it a million times, and it's still funny every time. It's a special breed of funny to hold up to that. For another fun quotable movie, try Drop Dead Gorgeous (this one had me and 2 of my friends speaking in a Minnesotan accent and saying "Hey to the folks" for MONTHS!).

As for the fontiness, it's served me well, even if I do frequently get comments like "You're a freak, how did you remember that?" In high school I worked in a video store, and this couple came in and said "we're looking for a movie we saw in a preview, but we don't remember the name. It had a helicopter and a bottle of wine..." and I said "Year of the Comet." and showed them where it was. The guy said "was it any good?" to which I responded "I don't know, I haven't seen it." hehe. Freak. I even remember the previews... I kick butt at trivial pursuit.

Last night, you know, did anybody, um... burst into song?

MARINO

Friday, July 12, 2002 4:32 PM

Started thinking about Spike's soul recently, working my brain overtime to try and figure out how Spike wouldn't become merely an Angel wannabe. And here's what I came up with:

What if Spike doesn't remember anything that's happened to him since he was turned? Just because you get your soul back doesn't mean you'll remember everything that's happened during its absence. What if what made Angel remember was the curse, not the soul itself? In other words, Spike [William] wouldn't feel guilty, or beat himself up, over the things he'd done previously - because he wouldn't remember any of it.

But why would he go back to Sunnydale if he doesn't remember any of it? Next season...

Select to view spoiler:

...the Hellmouth seems to be coming back from its dormancy. If you remember what the Hellmouth does, it draws supernatural beings towards it. So even though Spike/William doesn't remember it, he'd still head in its direction.

Now THAT would make Spike different from Angel, since he'd have to come to terms with the loss of one-hundred and twenty years of progress in the world, as well as deal with the Gang's feelings towards him from what he'd done before the return of his soul.

Just a thought...a theory...some speculation.

ZICSOFT

Friday, July 12, 2002 7:37 PM

I had exactly the same thought, though I didn't think it through as thoroughly as you did. There are additional reasons to believe this that you didn't mention:

-- Spike is way more evil than Angelus. Sorry, Spike fans, but it's true. Just because he's funnier and cooler, doesn't mean he's less evil. So traumatic amnesia's a big possibility.

-- Spike got his soul back on purpose. That demon who gave it to him has no reason to make him suffer -- unlike the Romani that cursed Angel.

-- It'd be a damned good story. Wipes the board clean. Nobody will know how to act towards him! All their past prejudices will be irrelevent. How can they resist doing this?!

There is a downside: if he forgets his entire existence as a vampire, the last thing he'll remember is wandering down an ally, moping about being an unappreciated Poetic Genius. William the Bloody Awful is back!

PANDORA

Saturday, July 13, 2002 2:11 AM

The thing is with Spike's soul and all is will they even believe he has his soul back, and if so, will it matter? Probably not to Xander at least (though I think that Dawn and Buffy can be re-suckered).

I don't know if Spike was/is more evil than Angelus. I'll grant you, the Slayer hunting was pretty bad, however, there was plenty of baby killin' for Angelus.

But that's neither here nor there. I think that forgetting his entire time as a vampire would be weak and whack in a number of ways- so much of the character of Spike is rooted in his vampirehood and the things he did during it. Can you imagine William the Bloody Awful regaling us with lovely Spikeisms such as "bloody ponce" or "wanker" or any other great foul British language?

No way!

Disappointment huge. Besides, he wouldn't remember his penchant for the soap opera Passions (an integral character point, IMO).

I guess my rather convoluted point is that if Spike doesn't remember the things he did, he won't be the Spike we know and love.

Now, if he does remember, how to avoid the angst issue?

Well, maybe he'll just disconnect himself from soulless Spike, and consider the things he did not his responsibility (which, in a way, they weren't, really).

Anyway, my other question is:

Are we all convinced that Spike was deliberately seeking out his soul? I haven't seen the episodes, but I've read the shooting scripts, because I'm a nerd, and it seemed there as though he was out for vengeance, not redemption. I'm not totally discounting the possibility, but is there something I missed?

Pandora

"Mrs. Krabappel and Principal Skinner were in the closet making babies and I saw one of the babies
and the baby looked at me." -Ralph Wiggum

MARINO

Saturday, July 13, 2002 12:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Pandora:
I don't know if Spike was/is more evil than Angelus. I'll grant you, the Slayer hunting was pretty bad, however, there was plenty of baby killin' for Angelus.

I wasn't all too sure about Spike being more evil than Angelus either. I always saw his Slayer hunting as a means of proving to himself how much he'd changed.

Quote:
But that's neither here nor there. I think that forgetting his entire time as a vampire would be weak and whack in a number of ways- so much of the character of Spike is rooted in his vampirehood and the things he did during it. Can you imagine William the Bloody Awful regaling us with lovely Spikeisms such as "bloody ponce" or "wanker" or any other great foul British language?

Well, just because he doesn't remember being Spike doesn't mean he's not still there. As for it being 'weak,' I don't think I get your point. How is it weak? It's taking an established character and changing him in a major way. The soul is gonna do that, whether they handle it in the way I suggested or using another method. What would be weak is making him like Angel exactly, or keeping him essentially the same as he was - only a little more likely to do nice things. That, to me, would contradict the enormity of what he had done to him in the season finale.

Select to view spoiler:

According to a recent report by Ain't It Cool News, Spike won't be sporting his bleached hair when the show starts back up this next season. Whether he'll bleach it back later is up in the air.

IMO, giving him back his soul and NOT having it change him in a considerable way would be 'weak.' There should be a noticeable difference between a person with a soul and a person without. The only example we've had previously was Angel and he changes massively when he's one or the other.

Quote:
Disappointment huge. Besides, he wouldn't remember his penchant for the soap opera Passions (an integral character point, IMO).

Oh, I'm certain William the Bloody Flake would love Passions. And besides, I haven't really said he'd be more William than he is Spike. Not remembering your past doesn't mean it didn't still happen. And besides, they've been changing the character for years now. Got the chip in his head and became a LOT different. Yes, he still had his funny wit and Spike-isms, but he became sort of a whiner and then a Buffy lapdog.

And let's say he would be Willaim: What's to say he'd be the same as he was? He's a vampire. Imagine if you're a fairly decent guy back in the 1880's, your bitten by something you can only imagine is a demon, and you wake up 120 years later without any memory of the last century's progress and find yourself a vampire. Not to mention the fact that you find yourself the target of harsh verbal and personal attacks by people you don't know who claim that you've hurt them.

If what I'm claiming is a possibility DOES, in fact, happen, don't expect William to be the same - not at all. This would be traumatizing, and it would provide James Marsters with a LOT to do next season. With the Spike lingo or not, I've a feeling he could pull anything off as an actor.

Quote:
Are we all convinced that Spike was deliberately seeking out his soul?

Well...when I saw it, I didn't think he went after it on purpose. I thought he wanted vengeance as well. But James mentioned in an interview that he was thrown by the fact that Joss had told him over the hiatus that he WAS after his soul in the first place. Since they had left it a bit ambiguous, it allowed the writers to decide either way over the hiatus and that's what they apparentally decided on. *shrug*

And remember: The idea of him not remembering his past, that's just my idea. Not necessarily what they're gonna do. But you put together everything that's happened on this show, and how much all of these characters have changed, and I don't see why having this happen to Spike would be such a major tragedy.

PANDORA

Saturday, July 13, 2002 4:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MarinO:
And remember: The idea of him not remembering his past, that's just my idea. Not necessarily what they're gonna do. But you put together everything that's happened on this show, and how much all of these characters have changed, and I don't see why having this happen to Spike would be such a major tragedy.

My major concerns are the following:

a)That Spike not be given a clean slate because he went too far and now they have to do something that extreme to make him redeemable

b)The character of Spike being compromised. Change is good and natural, and so is development. The suggestions you've made as to how the change can be handled are well and good, but if your speculation turns out to be reality, I would really hate for the difference between Evil Spike and Soul Spike to be the same as the difference between Evil Angel and Soul Angel. (Because, let's face it, Soul Angel, even remembering all his past deeds, is way, way different than Angelus.) A major part of Spike is his edge. Granted, he has been castrated, chipped, and weakened (though I personally think the whininess and poutiness were always there, he just had killing as a means of detracting from it), but he is/was still edgy- mean, sarcastic, and basically a right bastard. I'd hate to see him become a big poetic wussy. (That's right, I said wussy. And what?)

c)Weak plotting around such a premise. Don't get me wrong, I have great faith in Joss, but S6 shook me. There were so many things that I think could have been genuinely good if they'd been handled better that ended up being bad or mediocre. There are a hundred thousand things that could go wrong with a Spike Forgets All plot- ME has never been one to give up the happy too easily, but then, Willow's evil came way too easily (disregarding what I think might be considered some major inconsistencies).

Anyway, it's only my opinion.

Pandora

"Mrs. Krabappel and Principal Skinner were in the closet making babies and I saw one of the babies
and the baby looked at me." -Ralph Wiggum

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