Major Spoiler and I'm calling Joss out
POSTED BY: fireflygal
UPDATED: Friday, October 14, 2005 18:37
VIEWED: 62576
PAGE 8 of 23
First I want to thank FFG for makin this thread. Honestly, while I understand the reasons for killing 2 characters off....It didnt help me enjoy the movie. I appreciate you expressing your grief....and join in empathising with it. It is healthy to express these things...and makes me feel much better that I am not alone.
Althogh I am looking forward to actually watching the end. I was 2 shellshocked to take much in the 1st time around.
Quote:
Originally posted by Shakespeare:
One thing that gets limited discussion in the spoiler threads is just how indestructible the captain is in his final duel with the agent. Here Joss pushes believability to its raggedy edge in the opposite direction of Wash and Book.
The whole nerve pinch thing was a bit...um...well...Joss action shortcut really (he does that). But the whole thing about people gettin shot and stabbed through and still going.....
While NOT what we expect to see after a diet of hollywood action in which 1 shot kills...fact is that its the common expectation that is wrong...not Joss in this case.
Most people, when shot or stabbed...go down because they are in pain, shock...or just because thats what they are expected to do. This is a purely psychological reaction...those who are prepared, determined, on drugs that dull pain, or just really really hyped-up wont drop till they bleed out unless the CNS has been disrupted (hit to brain or spine). Reputable ballistics websites and police shooting statistics will varify this...
I am guessing that at the end the characters were feeling pretty determined.
----------------------------------------
Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life. (:~D
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I know that Simon and River originally weren't going to be part of the crew; they just liked their performance so much that the writers decided to keep them. Possibly Book and Inara? Or Jayne? I don't see how they could not have Mal, Kaylee, Zoe and Wash as four for sure.
Personally, I would have felt FAR more betrayed by Joss if nobody had died. I would have felt betrayed if I went to see Serenity - a movie of realism, of wit, and intelligence - and came out after seeing a fairy tale. Sure, it hurt. Sure, we'd have loved to have seen more of them. But the fact that you felt something at all made Serenity so much better.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
"But the whole thing about people gettin shot and stabbed through and still going.....
While NOT what we expect to see after a diet of hollywood action in which 1 shot kills...fact is that its the common expectation that is wrong...not Joss in this case.
Most people, when shot or stabbed...go down because they are in pain, shock...or just because thats what they are expected to do. This is a purely psychological reaction...those who are prepared, determined, on drugs that dull pain, or just really really hyped-up wont drop till they bleed out unless the CNS has been disrupted (hit to brain or spine). Reputable ballistics websites and police shooting statistics will varify this...
I am guessing that at the end the characters were feeling pretty determined."
Hello,
As a fan of ballistics and ONS statistics, I can confirm that one-shot-stops only occur a percentage of the time.
However, the expectation given to us in the Firefly universe is that when people are shot, something happens. They fall down, they get hurt, or they die. There is never a case in the entire series or movie where someone is shot and there is no effect...
except when the Operative shoots Mal. In this case, nothing happens, except a verbal exchange between Mal and the Operative. There is not any apparent injury or effect. Mal simply turns around, complains about being shot in the back, exchanges words, and wins in a fast-draw before entering extended melee combat.
I will concur with those who claim that THIS is the most grievous error in the movie. This scene stretched realism more than any other.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Yeah know what you mean fireflygal, when I got spoiled by accident it pissed me off no end, and it killed my feelings for Firefly. Its odd, but it died that day, on an enthusiasm scale from 1 to 100, i was at 90 but it dropped to 5 i guess.
I don't hate it, but if there never is another i don't really care. Besides, they all say its not more firefly its a new hybrid (Firefly is dead, long live Serenity).
Of course Joss has oddly enough said we'll see them again if there is a second movie they will both be back, or rather "see them again". Perhap sin flashbacks, who knows, not being Trek I'm not sure his universe is wide enough to have them resurrected again.
Also a note to the drones, who usually go on about how its his creation and he can do anything he likes etc. SHUT UP! I have a right to feel and think about this anyway I want, and I don't give a shit what you feel about it, so shut up already.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
If you don't give "a shit about what you think" then why should we give a shit about what you think? Say it with me F-I-C-T-I-C-I-O-U-S CHAR-ACT-ERS.
"It's about how much freedom you can take away from somebody before they either fold or fight," Whedon says. "It's about the right to be wrong and the nature of human beings, that they need the freedom to be wrong. That they cannot be made to be better or perfect."--Joss Whedon on Serenity
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
When I saw Serenity, I assumed that Mal was wearing some sort of bullet proof vest under his shirt in the final battle, as we have seen Zoe (and Mal I think?) wear in the series and the Operative wear earlier in the movie. I have not read confirmation of this anywhere, but it made sense to me at the time. That's why he could get shot in the back and turn around and give the Operative attitude for it, rather than collapse in pain.
As for Mal getting run-through with a sword, well, I have no explanation for that.... 
"I have never understood why it should be necessary to become irrational in order to prove that you care. Or indeed, why it should be necessary to prove it at all." -Kerr Avon
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
To FFG from Duces Tecum and Zipply, two original, hardcore, die hard Browncoats who have also been here since DAY ONE.
Duces:
FFG, my fellow coworker and Browncoat buddy Zipply just told me about this thread which is why I haven't been on earlier to say, "You go girl." Zip and I both agree with you completely. I'm not very eloquent but he is and I am going to try to tell you what he said. He made some points I want to share.
We were never Buffy or Angel fans, nor do we worship Joss Whedon. We are Firefly fans and are grateful to him for creating the 'verse.
How many of us would have hung around for the last two years knowing how this movie would turn out (meaning, two of the ensemble, our beloved characters, would be snuffed)? The music that we enjoyed so much in Firefly apparently was not good enough for the movie. The Western aspects, ditto.
Most of this year we have stood around discussing Serenity and making excuses for Joss. "He had to do the things he did to make sure the movie is a hit so we can have two more movies."
Friends I have to say, the more I read about the movie, the more I have to say, "Yup, it's a Buffy in space flick." Firefly is over, two of our BDH's are dead and if Joss is so almighty why didn't he figure out a way to at least keep Book on? I think the thing I hated the most is that I felt, perceived, that Ron Glass NEEDED THE WORK! and Joss cheated him out of gainful employment! Alan Tudyk has so many choices, he's okay and I'm not at all concerned about him even though I hate like hell that Wash is dead.
At this point, the only reason I am going to the movie is because it has been a planned event with many Browncoats for a long time. I positively will not be seeing it a second time.
Zip:
"One thing I liked about our little 'verse was that it was comprised of thoughtful adult types (regardless of actual ages). I fear after the release of the movie, FFF will become chock full of gothic teens saying, "Did you see the way River swung that axe? That was awesome, duuude!" I liked that us original Browncoats were more interested in the way that Book swung that dialogue."
Anyway, we both feel the same way, and are in agreement with you FFG. I'm sure we'll be chastized and criticized but what the hey, we're Browncoats, we're tough and we can take it.
And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an over-abundance of schooling. Mal, Train Job
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by nakedandarticulate:
If you don't give "a shit about what you think" then why should we give a shit about what you think?
Well if you werent totally dense you would have understod that you aren't. I specifically wrote I wasn't talking to you and your kind, only the original poster.
Quote:
Originally posted by nakedandarticulate:
Say it with me F-I-C-T-I-C-I-O-U-S CHAR-ACT-ERS.
Ok retard, try to get this through you dense scull: REAL FEELINGS!
The whole point of making art is to create feelings in the viewer - that doesn't mean the work that created those feelings is something we agree with. And just because you are a hollow shell without emotion doesn't mean everybody else is.
No kindly stop writing to me, idiots are such a chore.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by FlyingTams:
Also a note to the drones, who usually go on about how its his creation and he can do anything he likes etc. SHUT UP! I have a right to feel and think about this anyway I want, and I don't give a shit what you feel about it, so shut up already.
To be fair, it is the right of 'the drones' to think and feel about that any way they want. They feel that it's Joss' creation and he can do anything he likes and that they'll accept it. That's how THEY think and feel. Would you like it if you had twenty responses to this post saying "It's Joss' creation and he can do anything he likes, and I don't give a shit what you feel about it, so shut up already"?
* Grammar fixed
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I don't appreciate being labelled a "drone," thank you very much. I have just as much a right to express a counterpoint as you do to agree to someone else's. And I never told anyone how to feel, a question of "Why?" was posed, and I tried to answer it as best I could.
I'm a big supporter of Joss Whedon. No other stories have moved me the way his has. That's a fact, I will not apologize for it, and it does not make a drone or a fanboy. While there have been some things across his shows I feel could have been executed somewhat better, for the most part, he keeps me enthralled, making me laugh, cry, and everything in between.
I love "Serenity." I saw it, and I was riveted the entire time. Wash's and Book's deaths made me gasp and tear, and left me stunned. But I was proud that they died doing what they believed was right, and hopefully their sacrifices to see the truth told, will mean a (probably slow) change in the 'Verse.
But the crew getting the signal out and scoring a small victory, Kaylee and Simon finally getting together, a hint that Mal and Inara would maybe progress, River's recovery, Mal finding belief in something again, and to see Serenity repaired and "still flyin'" all made me cheer.
Joss moved me through a range of emotions. The only other film to do that recently for me, was last year's "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind," which I saw four times in the theater. The point is, it's rare for me to experience ANYTHING as a passive moviegoer, and for Joss' two hour story to do that as strongly as I did, well, I thank him. A lot.
"Serenity" was a continuation of where "Firefly" would have gone, and even if there's no sequels, I'm glad to have gotten to see it. I'm sorry others don't feel the same, but to each their own.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME