Karl Rove Betrayed CIA Agent's Cover - Anyone Surprised?

POSTED BY: Knibblet
UPDATED: Thursday, July 18, 2024 00:11
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GEEZER

Thursday, July 21, 2005 2:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Sarge- Let me add one more thing. If there are any reasonable conservatives (Geezer, for example) who want to know if ardent Bush supporters have even one toe dabbling in reality, just read this thread. It should answer that question.

Summoned, I appear.

And I gotta say...frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.

A third of the population of Botswana (one of the most free, peaceful and successful African countries) have HIV or AIDS. Islamic terrorists have no compunction about killing anybody in the name of their beliefs. Weyerhauser Corporation fires employees for having deer rifles in their trucks in the company parking lot...on the first day of hunting season...in Minnesota. Children are starving to death in several countries in Africa while their leaders use food as a political tool and divert aid money to their Swiss bank accounts. Europe is turning from a collection of individual countries with their own styles and ways of life into a homogeneous mass of mediocrity. Etc., etc., etc.

And all you all seem to worry about is how many Karl Roves can dance on the head of a pin? If I thought anything constructive would come out of this argument, either way - or if the real-world solution would actually have an impact on the world, either way - I'd get involved. But it's just mental masturbation, as far as I can see.

Guess I'll open another topic that will go nowhere, since it actually requires solutions, not opinions.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

SIGNYM

Thursday, July 21, 2005 4:19 AM

Quote:
And all you all seem to worry about is how many Karl Roves can dance on the head of a pin?

ALL I worry about??? Did you write that with a straight face, or were you chuckling at your private joke? Apparently, you've missed about a hundred posts!

Quote:
If I thought anything constructive would come out of this argument, either way - or if the real-world solution would actually have an impact on the world, either way

Hmmm... are you saying it doesn't make a difference who's in the White House?

Quote:
- I'd get involved.

What does it take to get involved anyway? Write your Congressmen. Or link up to the four or five website that allow you to email instead. That's all it takes for God's sake!

PIRATEJENNY

Thursday, July 21, 2005 5:04 AM

Quote:
[off topic] Many Americans are living a deep contradiction. On the one hand, they feel morally and militarily superior. On the other hand, they fear. But they have yet to experience that cold, still moment when survival calculations take place. When they are shocked into THINKING. Because they haven't truly taken the measure of their opponent, they are likely to act in dangerous ways

I don't really think you were off topic because what you said goes right to the heart of the matter. I was listening to a radio program the other night and I was very aware of the responses of the people calling in, the superiority and the selfrightiousness in most of the callers made me cringe..not that it was anything new but I couldn't help but focus on that aspect. It made me sad because its our own ignorance and stupidty thats going to make us suffer and we will suffer.

reading through this thread is just another example. Some can't even admit that a top offical in the president's administration has more then likely committed treason, not because he didn't, but because they just want to be right and see how much this admistration can get away with, and because we all know the rabit hole is very deep.

The fact of the matter is if Bush and CO says no crime has been committed then - NO crime has been committed. Its as simple as that and who is going to challenge such a decision?.

you say that many Americans are living in a deep contradiction, and you are right in that assesment.

We are also living with an admistration, and people who support it who don't value or believe their own ideology, the end justify the means.

People like that are dangerous!! People like that will sell their own mother for the right price. Now that is scary, but true and very sad at the same time.

Its that truth and that realization more then anything else that is sealing our fate.
We can wallow in the moral self-rightiousnes and
militarily superiority up to our eyeballs, its just making us that much more ripe for the picking.

Isn't that really part of the basic problem. Its very hard to give up that edge. Americans are loosing their status of top dog and superiority on every level here at home and in the world. Everyone else around the world is realizing this it seems except us. denying this to oursleves isn't helping us, its making us weaker. Most of us don't realize that our own attitude is hurting us. We are not evolving and we can't take respossiblity for what we don't acknowlege.

when... not if..... but when!! someone drops a bomb on us, or some other tragic outcome. I doubt if anyone will be able to find much comfort, in self rightiousnes and feelings of superiority.

The orginal poster of this thread asked a question. Karl Rove Betrayed CIA Agent's Cover - anyone surprised??

The answer is NO....I don't believe anyone is surprised not Bush Not Cheny and certainly nothing this admistration does surprises me or anyone. but its easier to feign surprise or denial rather then fess up that you are someone who doesn't value or believe your own ideology and for the right price you would sell out your mother your country or anything else for that matter.

I'll tell you what will shock the hell out of me and truly surprise me.

If Karl Rove takes the fall for this and actually goes jail....

but thats not likely to happen!!!

BARNSTORMER

Thursday, July 21, 2005 2:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
And all you all seem to worry about is how many Karl Roves can dance on the head of a pin?
ALL I worry about??? Did you write that with a straight face, or were you chuckling at your private joke? Apparently, you've missed about a hundred posts!
Quote:
If I thought anything constructive would come out of this argument, either way - or if the real-world solution would actually have an impact on the world, either way
Hmmm... are you saying it doesn't make a difference who's in the White House?
Quote:
- I'd get involved.
What does it take to get involved anyway? Write your Congressmen. Or link up to the four or five website that allow you to email instead. That's all it takes for God's sake!

No SignyM, for Christ sake just read the post and stop trying to stir the pot of contraversy.

You personally were not the subject of Geezers post. What Geezer wrote was "all you all worry about is how many Karl Roves........"

The posts in Real World Events have just been forums for the spouting of Political Rhetoric.
Nothing is accomplished but for the Far Far Wingers to vent their respective Spleens and blame all the worlds problems on their specific self proclaimed demons.

The moderate voices of reason just

with attempts to invoke a sense of reality to the topic of the day, and are promplty labeled (wrongly) as the lap dog of (insert your party here).

I for one (or another after Geezer) am sick to death of the abysmally stupid rants of the far far wingers. And deeply sorry for the efforts I have given to express my own VERY MODERATE opinions and explanations to the deaf of ear, heart, and reason.

Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'ma tellin' the truth.

BarnStormer

SIGNYM

Thursday, July 21, 2005 4:46 PM

[off topic]

Quote:
You personally were not the subject of Geezers post

I wasn't? Maybe Geezer should clarify whether he meant the singular "you" (SignyM) or the plural "you" (everyone participating in this thread or RWE forum). It's source of confusion, and a deficiency in the English language not to make that distinction.

Quote:
The posts in Real World Events have just been forums for the spouting of Political Rhetoric.

In the Talking Point thread, we discussed how we can get past the whole "talking points" approach (where people talk AT each other and not WITH each other). Nothing gets resolved here because (1) posters are often not clear what they're trying to say, quite often tossing in three or four topics in one paragraph (2) reponders refuse to directly answer on-topic questions and insted(3) throw in all kinds of distracting chaff. I suggested a new approach, in which the person who starts a thread gets to define the topic and has to come up with a clear statement, and the responders have to stay on-topic. You know- general respect for the discussion at hand. It might be worth a try.

As for "nothing being accomplished"... progress isn't made until we find vision that goes beyond "the way things work now". Our most automatic assumptions are the most invisible and often give us the most difficulty. But Galileo changed his point of reference and suddenly the motions of the heavenly bodies made sense. We have some very bright people here, and a unique opportunity to engage in two-way conversation, something that our mostly one-way mass media (billboards, TV, magazines, radio etc.) doesn't allow us to do. It would be a shame to waste it.

[/off topic]

Back to our regularly scheduled topic...

GEEZER

Thursday, July 21, 2005 6:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
[off topic]

Quote:
You personally were not the subject of Geezers post
I wasn't? Maybe Geezer should clarify whether he meant the singular "you" (SignyM) or the plural "you" (everyone participating in this thread or RWE forum). It's source of confusion, and a deficiency in the English language not to make that distinction.

"And all you all seem to worry about is how many Karl Roves can dance on the head of a pin?"

Sorry, SignyM, but I don't consider you all the people involved in this thread. In this case I was noting that the Karl Rove thread, including side trips to Mr Churchill and the real meaning of "suspend" has garnered more posts than anything since the first of the month, followed by the "Chopper killing farmers" thread. Both these began with "Guilty until proven innocent" allegations and devolved into the usual Evil Empire vs. let's let the system work debate, with a few insults thrown in for good measure.

I'm just so tired of all these remakes of the same movie.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

SIGNYM

Thursday, July 21, 2005 6:14 PM

Dang! Now HOW did I miss that??? Sorry Geezer, my eyes just skipped over that word.

So- how to get get past the same old remakes?

BARNSTORMER

Thursday, July 21, 2005 6:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
[off topic]

Quote:
You personally were not the subject of Geezers post
I wasn't? Maybe Geezer should clarify whether he meant the singular "you" (SignyM) or the plural "you" (everyone participating in this thread or RWE forum). It's source of confusion, and a deficiency in the English language not to make that distinction.

"And all you all seem to worry about is how many Karl Roves can dance on the head of a pin?"

Sorry, SignyM, but I don't consider you all the people involved in this thread. In this case I was noting that the Karl Rove thread, including side trips to Mr Churchill and the real meaning of "suspend" has garnered more posts than anything since the first of the month, followed by the "Chopper killing farmers" thread. Both these began with "Guilty until proven innocent" allegations and devolved into the usual Evil Empire vs. let's let the system work debate, with a few insults thrown in for good measure.

I'm just so tired of all these remakes of the same movie.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Amen to that.

It's like trying to watch a new movie premier just to have someone change the reel after the first 30 seconds to replace it with the same old episode of "The simple life".

Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'ma tellin' the truth.

BarnStormer

SIGNYM

Thursday, July 21, 2005 7:04 PM

Okay- We all decided that we don't like the same old same old. Nobody changes their POV and so the discussions are static ("stasis" not "noise"). The only way to move the discusion forward is for people to come to them with open minds, not simply turning them into wrestling matches where evasive maneuvers, dodges, and eye-gouging is allowed.

So, I'm going to ask a question that is ON TOPIC, and I hope to get an answer: Why should "we" (the public?) wait until Karl Rove (or any politician?) is indicted (convicted?) before discussing (reaching conclusions?) about his activities? Or, to back up a step...maybe someone will step forward and clarify what they think is the appropriate action to take. I will listen and reply respectfully and directly. Thanks.

PERFESSERGEE

Thursday, July 21, 2005 8:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
I'm gonna have to do the unexpected here and defend AJ.

His statements, as they were written and as analyzed by perfessergee, do lead to the logical fallacy described above. But, I think it's mostly a matter of presentation. I think (and correct me if I'm wrong AJ) that his point was something more like this: Rove hasn't been convicted of anything yet and it's wrong to treat him as if he's guilty until he has been.

I certainly feel differently. From my point of view, the wrong that was done has already been openly acknowledged. To me, the wrong part was starting a whispering campaign to damage the credibility of a critic. It just seems underhanded and something that ought to be beneath officials at the White House.

Sarge, I have to both agree and disagree here. I agree with your last paragraph, but I beg to differ that reasoning can be a matter of presentation. Presentation counts in propaganda and manipulation, but not in reasoning. You just can't build a valid argument based on fallacious reasoning.

One of the things we've been doing on this thread (many of us, me included at times) is that we've failed to clearly distinguish between criminal culpability and "wrongdoing". The latter obviously includes all of the former, but certainly not vice versa. Wrongdoing can include lots of things that are ethically despicable but don't rise to criminal conduct (or at least don't result in any convictions). And we rightly put safeguards into criminal matters, including a presumption of innocence until conviction. Rove has not been convicted of anything, and calls for jailing him are unwarranted as yet. But the legal presumption of innocence is not the same thing as a lack of culpability, and we are all free to speculate away as to the truth of the matter (and don't we all do just that

!).

Man this thread is getting long! Is there any way to split it, or does someone have to just start a new thread?

taking forever to download perfessergee

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