Were we left-leanin' peeps and Libertarians spoiled by the last quarter of the 20th Century?
POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Wednesday, August 19, 2026 00:41
VIEWED: 4659
PAGE 8 of 8
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I was referring to this little gem:Quote:A lot? No. And different in critical aspects.
Corporatism, practiced by both the Italian Fascists and German National Socialists, seems to embody a lot of the same ideals as the Cooperatives you frequently espouse.
And those aspects are?
Quote:
BTW- Talking about capitalism (communism, or any number of isms) is like talking about religion. When pointing to problems that religions often engender (intolerance, war, ignorance, authoritarianism etc.) people will say... "Well yeah, but if you take away the greed, corruption, narrow-mindedness, and authoritarianism" (in other words, all the frailties human systems are heir to) "and just look at the idea behind it, it's great!"
*snicker*
I have yet to see capitalism. It's as much a fantasy as communism.
One could say the same about your 'cooperativism', or even more so, since you have to go back to either ancient history or tribal cultures to provide any even semi-successful examples. So should we all just give up because no system works perfectly? When you're dealing with humans, nothing is going to work perfectly. Choose what works best in real life. Successful countries are moving towards relatively free-market and kinda capitalist ideas.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Anyway ... with all this 'line drawing' of who belongs where I haven't seen any reference to any actual so-called nanny state like say Sweden, the Netherlands or even (gasp) CANADA
That's been because the discussion has been about the U.S., and tangentinally fascist Italy and Germany, not anywhere else.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Geezer's POV is based on two linked but completely false notions: One is that evolution (including social evolution) is an 'improvement' process; the other is that the world we live in is substantially the best ever.
Rue's POV is that Rue can draw spurious conclusions about what other people mean based on Rue's prejudices.
I've said in many discussions that, overall, the United States (not the world) has been trending, since the Revolution, towards more individual dignity and rights. I've also said that there are bumps along the way. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Any other interpretation on your part is sheer fantasy. Why am I not surprised?
"Keep the Shiny side up"
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
So, out of curiosity, does anyone here consider those countries the prime example of the horrible government forcing the collective good on everyone against their will ?
Maybe Sweden, since you brought it up?
Quote:
Don’t believe the hype: “Sweden is no cuddly liberal democracy,” writes Nathalie Rothschild for Spiked, berating her home country for “introducing the most Draconian surveillance law in Europe.” Known as the FRA law but nicknamed "Lex Orwell" by opponents, the legislation gives intelligence agencies the right to intercept all incoming foreign communication.
http://www.newser.com/story/32035/big-brother-comes-to-sweden.html
"Keep the Shiny side up"
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
...the legislation gives intelligence agencies the right to intercept all incoming foreign communication.
Sweden passed Bush's FISA bill?!
;)
Mike
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock
The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
"That's been because the discussion has been about the U.S., and tangentinally fascist Italy and Germany, not anywhere else."
Really ? B/c there was some very vague equation, which you drew of course, between the left and countries that force collectivism on their poor oppressed people.
It went something like this: "The Left prizes the collective good (as defined by the Left), and is willing to sacrifice the rights of individuals for the supposed good of the whole. Hence, for example, the "Although you're law-abiding, we demand that you give up your right to own firearms on the off chance it might keep a criminal from using one." type retoric. The Left want the government to "take care" of us, and improve our lives (using their image of 'improved') whether we want to be taken care of and improved or not."
***************************************************************
Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
"I've said in many discussions that, overall, the United States (not the world) has been trending, since the Revolution, towards more individual dignity and rights. I've also said that there are bumps along the way. Nothing more. Nothing less."
Then, well - how does this happen ? In your view it just does, somehow.
But in real life it happens through wars, and violence and protest. B/c every time the status quo is threatened, those with the status feel a pinch, and exert power to keep their prerogatives.
So why such a passive view towards equality, freedom and justice ? If you read even the very short history of the US, you know that passivism isn't how things change.
***************************************************************
Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
GEEZER
Quote:I underlined one of them. Just scroll up and read what I wrote.
And those aspects are?
---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I underlined one of them. Just scroll up and read what I wrote.
Oh. "Corporations are unelected bodies with an internal hierarchy."
Yeah, taken out of context that doesn't sound like your cooperatives, but 'unelected' in this instance doesn't mean voting within the corporation, but voting by the population as a whole. Corporations working with, co-opted by, or owned by the government have power over both their members and the population as a whole. They aren't given this power by ballot, but by government fiat. Your cooperatives would require such government blessing, and protection, to compete with entreprenurial businesses.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Third Party Politics
Marjorie Taylor Greene Launches America First Movement
Liberty Vault interviewed Dave Smith, both of them Libertarians.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME