Boeing 737 Max
POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Friday, August 21, 2026 17:40
VIEWED: 21693
PAGE 7 of 22
Quote:I'm not sure that makes sense.
Originally posted by second:
The airline’s youngest-ever captain, a 29-year-old with an impressive 8,100 hours flying time, and his rookie 25-year-old co-pilot may have made a crucial mistake by leaving the engines at full take-off power, according to data and other pilots.
By the end, the aircraft was traveling at 500 knots (575 mph, 926 kph), far beyond its design limits. A “clacker” warning was telling the pilots their aircraft was going too fast. Data confirms the engines stayed at nearly full power. Other 737 pilots say that made the crew’s job tougher by making the controls much harder to move. . . .
That and some other potential missteps may have left them unable to fight flawed Boeing software that eventually sent the jet into an uncontrollable dive, experts said after studying the data.
“Power being left in take-off power while leveling off at that speed is not a normal procedure,” said one U.S. pilot, who declined to be named because he was not authorized to speak to the media. “I can’t imagine a scenario where you’d need to do that.” . . .
The combination of excess speed and cutting off the system while the plane was still leaning downwards meant up to 50 pounds of force would be needed to move the control column, and moving the manual trim wheels was impossible. . . . The captain asked the co-pilot to try to trim the plane manually using a wheel in the center console to lift the nose and make it easier to recover from the dive. But it was too hard to move the wheel. Both men then tried to pitch the nose up together. The captain, according to the report, said it was not enough.
www.reuters.com/article/us-ethiopia-airplane-reconstruction-insi/how-e
xcess-speed-hasty-commands-and-flawed-software-doomed-an-ethiopian-airlines-737-max-idUSKCN1RH0FJ
Take-Off Power setting, sure. Leveling off altitude, which is after climbing? The entire flight was what, 2 or 3 minutes? Cruising Altitude is something like 36,000 feet. Adequate altitude would have not meant they had insufficient time to recover from nose dive/loss of Altitude.
They ran out of Altitude too quickly, which does not seem to indicate leveling off altitude in a quirky bird which is known to have Flight Control Failures during the Take-Off Sequence.
This might be a detail to keep an ear out for.
I also don't know the geography of the Airport. Some Airports are surrounded by mountains, so extra clearance altitude is warranted. Not every Airport is like LAX, where there are no mountains in the Pacific Ocean.
Yes, 500 knots is too fast in an uncontrollable nose dive - but that velocity would not have been achieved in a nose-up Attitude. Take-Off Power setting sets off the Stall Prevention software? This sounds like the standard procedure for crashes, always blame the Dead Pilots, they can't talk back.
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I read an interesting POV on the HARDWARE problems of the Boeing MAX8, which went like this:
All flight-critical components are designed into aircraft in threes, like three computers from three different manufacturers. However, the faulty Angle of Attack (AoA) sensor which activated the MACS software was only designed in as a single unit, with a second AoA sensor installed as an option.
The reason for this was that Boeing wanted to beat Airbus to the market, and so they decided to make the 737 Max 8 a MODIFICATION, rather than a whole new design. That meant they wanted to eliminate the need for costly re-training (including expensive simulagor training) by making the control panel exactly the same as previous versions of the 737 (none of which had MACS).
Well, the previous version of the 737 didn't have a MACS. The AOAs on previous airplanes only provided a stall warning, which pilots were supposed to respond to manually. But because the AoA sensor became part of an automated system, Boeing realized that TWO AoAs ... if providing conflicting information ... would require a new procedure ... with more training... how to disable the MACS... which would have made the Max 8 non-competitive with Airbus.
So, some corporate accountants and heads made a penny-wise decision and decided to kill the mandatory second AoA (despite it being filght-critical).
The reason why Boeing wants to focus on the software is because a sofware problem is easy to fix. But the source of the problem ... a faulty AoA sensor ... is a HARDWARE problem which requires a HARDWARE fix ... meaning, a second mandatory AoA sensor, a new control panel element (reading conflict warning), and more training (what to do in case of a reading conflict/ how to disable the MACS) ... if not a third AoA sensor to "tiebreak" two conflicting sensors. (In reality, according to Boeing engineers and project managers speaking anonymously, the whole plane needs a re-design.)
Let's see if Boeing modifies the hardware, and then requires the appropriate training.
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If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake
"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND
America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .
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Quote:To clarify, you are talking about redundancies and possibly back-ups. Perhaps computer calculations by committee.
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I read an interesting POV on the HARDWARE problems of the Boeing MAX8, which went like this:
All flight-critical components are designed into aircraft in threes, like three computers from three different manufacturers. However, the faulty Angle of Attack (AoA) sensor which activated the MACS software was only designed in as a single unit, with a second AoA sensor installed as an option.
The reason for this was that Boeing wanted to beat Airbus to the market, and so they decided to make the 737 Max 8 a MODIFICATION, rather than a whole new design. That meant they wanted to eliminate the need for costly re-training (including expensive simulagor training) by making the control panel exactly the same as previous versions of the 737 (none of which had MACS).
Well, the previous version of the 737 didn't have a MACS. The AOAs on previous airplanes only provided a stall warning, which pilots were supposed to respond to manually. But because the AoA sensor became part of an automated system, Boeing realized that TWO AoAs ... if providing conflicting information ... would require a new procedure ... with more training... which would have made the Max 8 non-competitive with Airbus.
So, some corporate accountants and heads made a penny-wise decision and decided to kill the second AoA (despite it being filght-critical).
The reason why Boeing wants to focu on the software is because a sofware problem is easy to fix. But the source of the problem ... a faulty AoA sensor ... is a HARDWARE problem which requires a HARDWARE fix. (In reality, the whole plane needs a re-design.)
Let's see if Boeing modifies the hardware, and then requires the appropriate training.
Airbus was the king of redundant systems and components. While Boeing, MD, Lockheed might have 1 or 2 backups, Airbus might have 5 in comparison. An inherently more Safety-Minded attitude which scrimping competitors were not savvy to, and this has been the case since the 80s, not just an overnight occurance.
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Most recent information is that the 737 MAX has one sensor for the angle of attack - the plane angle as compared to level.
In the Ethiopian flight, that one sensor was giving a faulty reading, indicating the nose was too high and the jet could stall out. That triggered the anti-stall routine, which kept putting the nose down, that the pilots couldn't control (despite apparently following BOING!BOING!'s recommended procedures). And so, everyone died.
One sensor is faulty by design, but even 2 sensors are no guarantee, because both could be iced-up, OR be providing conflicting information.
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On Thursday, Boeing for the first time officially took responsibility for the two crashes of 737 Max jets that got the planes grounded by regulators.
But then Friday morning, the company announced that it had found a second, unrelated software flaw that it also needs to fix.
All of which raises the question of why such flawed systems were allowed to fly in the first place.
Boeing rushed a series of kludges through the certification process — with an underresourced Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) seemingly all too eager to help an American company threatened by a foreign competitor, rather than to ask tough questions about the project.
More at www.vox.com/2019/4/5/18296646/boeing-737-max-mcas-software-update
As late as February 2011, Boeing chair and CEO James McNerney was sticking to the plan to design a totally new aircraft.
“We’re not done evaluating this whole situation yet,” he said on an analyst call, “but our current bias is to move to a newer airplane, an all-new airplane, at the end of the decade, beginning of the next decade. It’s our judgment that our customers will wait for us.”
But in August 2011, Boeing announced that it had lined up orders for 496 re-engined Boeing 737 aircraft from five airlines.
It’s not entirely clear what happened, but, reading between the lines, it seems that in talking to its customers Boeing reached the conclusion that airlines would not wait for them. Some critical mass of carriers (American Airlines seems to have been particularly influential) was credible enough in its threat to switch to Airbus equipment that Boeing decided it needed to offer 737 buyers a Boeing solution sooner rather than later.
Committing to putting a new engine that didn’t fit on the plane was the corporate version of the Fyre Festival’s “let’s just do it and be legends, man” moment, and it unsurprisingly wound up leading to a slew of engineering and regulatory problems.
(According to at least one former Fyre Festival organizer, there were dozens of red flags leading up to the supposedly luxurious event turning into a light version of Lord of the Flies.)
The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly
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Today's tweet is connected to Boeing 737 Max
Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump
The World Trade Organization finds that the European Union subsidies to Airbus has adversely impacted the United States, which will now put Tariffs on $11 Billion of EU products! The EU has taken advantage of the U.S. on trade for many years. It will soon stop!
4:34 AM - 9 Apr 2019
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1115578769518018560
Boeing 737 Max is grounded; Airbus is still flying; Trump attacks Airbus indirectly by attacking EU.
The headline is "Dow falls 200 points as Trump tweets threat of $11 billion in ‘tariffs on EU products’" Apr 9, 2019 9:54 a.m. ET
www.marketwatch.com/story/stock-market-futures-edge-lower-as-us-threat
ens-european-tariffs-2019-04-09
Eventually Trump will forget about raising EU tariffs. It's a bluff. Things will return to normal: Boeing still grounded; Airbus still flying; Trump still thrashing.
www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/the-fury-and-failure-of-donald-
trump-w444943 
The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly
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Quote:
Originally posted by second:
Today's tweet is connected to Boeing 737 Max
Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump
The World Trade Organization finds that the European Union subsidies to Airbus has adversely impacted the United States, which will now put Tariffs on $11 Billion of EU products! The EU has taken advantage of the U.S. on trade for many years. It will soon stop!
4:34 AM - 9 Apr 2019
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1115578769518018560
Boeing 737 Max is grounded; Airbus is still flying; Trump attacks Airbus indirectly by attacking EU.
The headline is "Dow falls 200 points as Trump tweets threat of $11 billion in ‘tariffs on EU products’" Apr 9, 2019 9:54 a.m. ET
www.marketwatch.com/story/stock-market-futures-edge-lower-as-us-threat
ens-european-tariffs-2019-04-09
Eventually Trump will forget about raising EU tariffs. It's a bluff. Things will return to normal: Boeing still grounded; Airbus still flying; Trump still thrashing.
It's pretty obvious he doesn't really care about anything other than indulging his whims. Has anyone seen him perform a single selfless act?
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CEO Dennis Muilenberg appealed directly to president Trump to keep the 737 Max in the air. Trump announced the US was grounding the 737 Max 8 and 9 three days after dozens of countries had banned the aircraft. Trump told reporters at the time that “we didn’t have to make this decision today. We could have delayed it. We maybe didn’t have to make it at all. But I felt it was important both psychologically and in a lot of other ways.” Acting FAA administrator Dan Elwell later claimed the decision was “fact-based” and due to “new satellite data available this morning” tracking flight patterns. Trump’s next pick for the head of the FAA, Steve Dickson, a former Delta executive, is unlikely to change this pattern of industry influence over the regulator. (Before that, Trump had considered nominating his personal pilot, John Dunkin, for the job but elicited opposition from Congress.)
"Boeing’s cold-blooded risk calculation may tarnish trust in “self-driving” cars for years"
https://qz.com/1590040/
The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly
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Sensors Linked to Boeing 737 Crashes Vulnerable to Failure
There are at least 140 instances since the early 1990s of sensors on U.S. planes being damaged by jetways and other equipment on the ground or hitting birds in flight.
In at least 25 cases in the U.S., Canada and Europe, the damage triggered cockpit alerts or emergencies.
Before the 737 Max crashes, the most recent accident involving the sensors occurred when an Airbus SE A320 on a 2008 demonstration flight went down off the coast of France killing all seven people aboard. Moisture inside two of the plane’s three angle-of-attack vanes froze, confusing the aircraft’s automation system, according to France’s Office of Investigations and Analysis.
www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-11/sensors-linked-to-737-crash
es-vulnerable-to-failure-data-show
The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly
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Yep. The 737 Max crashes are ALL TRUMP'S FAULT! ... despite the fact they're faulty by design, and were BOING!BOING! self-certified under Obama's FAA procedures.
http://www.boeing.com/company/about-bca/washington/737-max8-certificat
ion-03-09-17.page
A family first: 737 MAX 8 awarded FAA certification
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/27/dot-watchdog-is-auditing-faas-approval
-of-boeing-737-max-after-2-crashes.html
https://www.businessinsider.com/us-government-audit-faa-boeing-737-max
-certification-process-2019-3
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