Boeing 737 Max
POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Friday, August 21, 2026 17:40
VIEWED: 21693
PAGE 3 of 22
Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:Quote:Here you are wrong again, as usual. 6ix made a correct statement.
Originally posted by second:Quote:Wrong. The design would crash the plane when one sensor fails. One. Sensor. Fails. The people who work at Boeing knew this BEFORE THE CRASH. They spoke to the Seattle Times, which kept their names secret because otherwise they will be fired from Boeing. The Times wants to write future stories about Boeing and it wants its sources to continue working there.
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
This is what happens when we let computers do everything for us.
www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-fa
a-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash/
Just like today's kids don't know how to do math, because their handheld device tells them what to think, today's Pilots do not have the experience of flying planes, enduring long boring flights while at the controls.
Perhaps 6ix did not intend this context, but his statement is accurate.
In the case of one sensor, the Pilot was able to have enough sense to know what corrective flight control to attempt, but the Flight Computer kept overriding the Pilot's efforts, because we gave the computer the authority to do everything for us. Even when it is wrong. Computers do not have a self-preservation instinct, but Pilots do.
That, and more, was my intent. Not only don't they get any experience, literally being able to doze off while "piloting" as if it were a night job at a hospital security desk, but the qualifications for such a job have much lower standards than they used to as well.
You see it everywhere. That's why companies can't wait to fire the old dogs, no matter how much experience and knowledge they had, when they can hire three new idiots out of college for what they were being paid.
Do Right, Be Right. :)
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Quote:Would you like to guess what are the 2 most worn out spots for each seat location, total of 4 per cockpit? My answers are for over 30 years ago, and are certainly germane today, but do not apply to Flight Engineers or Navigators.
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:Quote:Here you are wrong again, as usual. 6ix made a correct statement.
Originally posted by second:Quote:Wrong. The design would crash the plane when one sensor fails. One. Sensor. Fails. The people who work at Boeing knew this BEFORE THE CRASH. They spoke to the Seattle Times, which kept their names secret because otherwise they will be fired from Boeing. The Times wants to write future stories about Boeing and it wants its sources to continue working there.
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
This is what happens when we let computers do everything for us.
www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-fa
a-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash/
Just like today's kids don't know how to do math, because their handheld device tells them what to think, today's Pilots do not have the experience of flying planes, enduring long boring flights while at the controls.
Perhaps 6ix did not intend this context, but his statement is accurate.
In the case of one sensor, the Pilot was able to have enough sense to know what corrective flight control to attempt, but the Flight Computer kept overriding the Pilot's efforts, because we gave the computer the authority to do everything for us. Even when it is wrong. Computers do not have a self-preservation instinct, but Pilots do.
That, and more, was my intent. Not only don't they get any experience, literally being able to doze off while "piloting" as if it were a night job at a hospital security desk, but the qualifications for such a job have much lower standards than they used to as well.
You see it everywhere. That's why companies can't wait to fire the old dogs, no matter how much experience and knowledge they had, when they can hire three new idiots out of college for what they were being paid.
Do Right, Be Right. :)
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Quote:I couldn't possibly guess, but I'd sure like to know!
Would you like to guess what are the 2 most worn out spots for each seat location, total of 4 per cockpit?
-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake
"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND
America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .
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Capt. Sullenberger on the FAA and Boeing:
For too many years, the FAA has not been provided budgets sufficient to ensure appropriate oversight of a rapidly growing global aviation industry. Staffing has not been adequate for FAA employees to oversee much of the critically important work of validating and approving aircraft certification. Instead, much of the work has been outsourced by designating aircraft manufacturer employees to do the work on behalf of the FAA. This, of course, has created inherent conflicts of interest, when employees working for the company whose products must be certified to meet safety standards are the ones doing much of the work of certifying them. There simply are not nearly enough FAA employees to do this important work in-house.
Boeing, in developing the 737 Max 8, obviously felt intense competitive pressure to get the new aircraft to market as quickly as possible. When flight testing revealed an issue with meeting the certification standards, they developed a fix, Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS), but did not tell airline pilots about it. In mitigating one risk, they seem to have created another, greater risk.
After the crash of Lion Air 610 last October, it was apparent that this new risk needed to be effectively addressed. It has been reported that Boeing pushed back in discussions with the FAA about the extent of changes that would be required, and after the second crash, of Ethiopian 302, the Boeing CEO reached out to the U.S. President to try to keep the 737 Max 8 from being grounded in the U.S. The new fix still has not been fielded, nearly five months after Lion Air. It almost certainly could have been done sooner, and should have been.
www.marketwatch.com/story/capt-sully-sullenberger-where-boeing-and-the
-faa-went-wrong-in-this-ugly-saga-2019-03-19
The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly
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the inet ate my post
Then I got looged out then the Youtube search got scrambled
This guy is usually funny, I recommend most of his videos (NSFW) for sheer hilarity; he uses a word which must be a Candianism: skookum (solid, well built). In this case I disagree with his conclusion, but he details wht the pilot would have needed to have done to save the airplane. NOTE: None of this is in the manual.
Also, when he finds out there was only one aoa sensor (additional sensors were offered as an "option") I think he'll change his mind and put much more blame on Boeing.
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Quote:On the ledge of the dash there are 2 wear spots about the width of shoes. This is where the Officer not in Command parks his feet. All other parts in the cockpit get replaced, upgraded, repaired. The dashboard does not get replaced.
Originally posted by SIGNYM:Quote:I couldn't possibly guess, but I'd sure like to know!
Would you like to guess what are the 2 most worn out spots for each seat location, total of 4 per cockpit?
The cockpit voice recorder usually has stuff like "No, that's a cow, and over there is Italy"
They are describing clouds, like kids. One of the critical obligations of Pilots remains to exercise visual scan and observation of the sky, and imagine how boring this must be to watch an empty sky for the entire duration of a flight. And your depth perception could go loopy.
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I wonder what the voice recorder had when the guy in a lawn chair launched himself with weather balloons and drifted into the LAX flight path.
What are those ... weather balloons? Why are they all bunched ... wait ... ... do you see something hanging underneath ... ?
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Pilot who hitched a ride saved Lion Air 737 a day before deadly crash
That extra pilot, who was seated in the cockpit jumpseat, correctly diagnosed the problem and told the crew how to disable a malfunctioning flight-control system and save the plane, according to two people familiar with Indonesia’s investigation. The extra pilot on the earlier flight from Bali to Jakarta told the crew to cut power to the motor driving the nose down, part of a checklist that all pilots are required to memorize.
Most 737 Max pilots faced with the malfunction are able to avert disaster, while others lose control of their planes and crash.
More at www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-19/how-an-extra-man-in-cockpit
-saved-a-737-max-that-later-crashed
At the order of Congress, the FAA increasingly delegated some “nuts-and-bolts” certification responsibilities to manufacturers.
The US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) hasn’t had a proper top official since its last chief departed 14 months ago. That could soon change, with the White House saying yesterday that president Donald Trump will nominate former Delta Airlines executive Steve Dickson to lead the agency.
The FAA’s top three positions are all held by officials in an acting capacity. James Norton, founder of consultancy Play-Action Strategies, which advises companies on getting federal contracts, told Quartz earlier: “When you have interim or acting people for a long period of time, that puts everyone else in an interim role in that chain of command, adding that over two years into the Trump administration is “a long time” to not have permanent management in place at the FAA.
More at https://qz.com/1576630/
The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly
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In the aftermath of the Lion Air crash, Boeing pointed to long-established procedures that pilots could have used to handle a malfunction of the anti-stall system, regardless of whether the pilots knew MCAS existed.
That checklist tells pilots to switch off the two stabilizer trim cutout switches on the central console, and then to adjust the aircraft’s stabilizers manually using trim wheels.
The 737 MAX can fly without MCAS, so the feature was not considered “flight-critical” even though it has extraordinary power to steer the plane, said an industry expert with knowledge of the system who spoke on condition of anonymity. MCAS controls the large horizontal wing on the plane’s tail known as the stabilizer, while the pilot controls smaller flaps or “elevators” on the stabilizer.
Over several minutes, the stabilizer can shift position enough that the elevator controls can no longer counteract the downward direction of the plane, the source said.
“They gave more control power to the automation than to the pilot,” the source said of the MCAS design.
The Lion Air pilots flew for about five minutes by using the elevator to counteract the stabilizer every 15 or 20 seconds, said John Hansman, an aeronautics professor at MIT, based on readings from the flight data recorder. After that, the pilot tried pulling back hard on the controls.
“That’s what suggests that the crew didn’t understand the system. They thought they were shutting MCAS off and didn’t,” Hansman said. “Whereas any time during the entire sequence, they could have reached to the middle console and just shut it off.”
More at www.reuters.com/article/us-ethiopia-airplane-controls-explainer/change
-to-737-max-controls-may-have-imperiled-planes-experts-say-idUSKCN1R322M
The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly
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Those required actions were in the AvE video.
Basically you have to shut off the power to the electronics. That supposes that you've adequately troubleshot the plane ... while falling like a stone from the sky... to realize that the trouble is in the software or electronics and not hydraulic or mechanical or even meteorological (microburst).
-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake
"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND
America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .
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