Boeing 737 Max

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Friday, August 21, 2026 17:40
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6IXSTRINGJACK

Monday, March 18, 2019 6:21 PM

You need to stop picking one sentence out of my posts and taking them out of context, shit for brains.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

SECOND

Monday, March 18, 2019 6:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
You need to stop picking one sentence out of my posts and taking them out of context, shit for brains.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

I picked one sentence to help you focus on what the Seattle Times wrote about Boeing's fatally bad design. Did you read the Seattle Times before you wrote back? No? If you had, you would see that the FAA rubber-stamped Boeing's bad design because the Republicans in Congress did not give the FAA enough money to check the design.

www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-fa
a-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Monday, March 18, 2019 8:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by second:
Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
This is what happens when we let computers do everything for us.
Wrong. The design would crash the plane when one sensor fails. One. Sensor. Fails. The people who work at Boeing knew this BEFORE THE CRASH. They spoke to the Seattle Times, which kept their names secret because otherwise they will be fired from Boeing. The Times wants to write future stories about Boeing and it wants its sources to continue working there.
www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-fa
a-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash/

Here you are wrong again, as usual. 6ix made a correct statement.
Just like today's kids don't know how to do math, because their handheld device tells them what to think, today's Pilots do not have the experience of flying planes, enduring long boring flights while at the controls.
Perhaps 6ix did not intend this context, but his statement is accurate.

In the case of one sensor, the Pilot was able to have enough sense to know what corrective flight control to attempt, but the Flight Computer kept overriding the Pilot's efforts, because we gave the computer the authority to do everything for us. Even when it is wrong. Computers do not have a self-preservation instinct, but Pilots do.

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Monday, March 18, 2019 9:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
For most of Aviation History, Investigation of Catastrophic Failures focused on how many seconds elapsed after the "Oh Shit" moment, signifying when the Pilot-in-Command realized there was a serious problem - and striving to find a solution which could have been implemented instead of the actions which resulted in the failure.
Now that birds are flown by computer, there is almost never an Oh Shit moment - it has been replaced by the "What's It Doing?" Query. Meaning the Pilot-in-Command wonders what is the Flight Computer doing.

There seems to be some confusion between Computer Controlled Flight and Auto Pilot.
IIRC, there were 4 Categories of Auto-Pilot. Including Flight from 400 ft of Altitude after Takeoff until the final 400 ft of Approach to Landing. And from 200ft beginning to end. And 100 ft begin to end. And entire sequence from Takeoff until Touchdown and Stop. That last one was never allowed to be selected on the Auto Pilot. I believe that one was Category 1. I believe the 400 ft one was Category IV, and that was the only selection I ever saw selected when installing the Auto Pilot.

Auto Pilots have been used since at least the 1970s, and I think the 1960s.

It is not really the Auto Pilot which is causing failures, it is the Flight Computers, and the lack of experience ingrained in Pilots who no longer ever fly the bird.

Airbus has been the most Safety-Designed birds built.
Frozen Pitot Tubes are a known potential failure. When Pilots depart Visual Flight Rules flight, they are required to dedicate complete faith to Instruments. Without visual reference due to dark, fog, etc, they must trust the instrument readings to be true indicators of Airspeed, A-o-A, Altitude, Bank. When the first 2 Pitot Tubes freeze up, caution should be exercised before relying upon the final.

ummmmm.
The MCAS is a new development. It does not stand for Marine Corps Air Station in this instance.
The Manoeuvering Characteristics Augmentation System is suspected in the causes of the MAX crashes. The MCAS is disengaged when Auto-Pilot is active. MCAS is engaged when Auto-Pilot is disengaged, and Pilots were not informed, not allowed to know that this Flight Control override even existed. So, Nose-Dive procedures are to disengage Auto-Pilot, so that MCAS will put you into a Nose-Dive.

SECOND

Monday, March 18, 2019 10:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

In the case of one sensor, the Pilot was able to have enough sense to know what corrective flight control to attempt, but the Flight Computer kept overriding the Pilot's efforts, because we gave the computer the authority to do everything for us. Even when it is wrong. Computers do not have a self-preservation instinct, but Pilots do.

These pilots did not have the instinct of self-preservation or else they would know how this crash could be prevented: By turning the Stab Trim switches to OFF. This disables the horizontal stabilizer's trim completely, and reverts to manual trim, preventing MCAS from making inputs to the aircraft. This means that the pilots must manually move/rotate the trim wheels in order to apply pitch trim during flight.
https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/61203/how-difficult-is-it
-to-simply-disable-disengage-the-mcas-on-boeing-737-max-8-9/61208#61208

I've saved my life a thousand times by using the OFF switch. These pilots could have, too, but didn't have the commonsense to try. That does not exonerate Boeing from a crappy design that kills pilots lacking commonsense. It does not exonerate the FAA from letting Boeing sell a crappy design.

The unexpected can easily cause a pilot's brain to lock, especially when they think "I'M ALREADY DOING THE RIGHT ACTION WHY ISN'T IT WORKING!?!?!", and they continue to (ineffectively) fight the controls as the ground gets closer and closer, the stick is shaking and alarms are going nuts.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

SIGNYM

Monday, March 18, 2019 11:16 PM

No matter what the issue or event, we can always count on SECOND to find a way to say It's All Trump's Fault. So despite the fact that the max series design was begun in 2011 and Boeing was in constant communication with the FAA during the design and certification process (for example, the FAA had to approve the request to certify the max series as a "modification" instead of as a whole new design) I think we can take as a given that SECOND will work Trump into the thread somehow, and ignore anything it posts aloong those lines.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

SECOND

Tuesday, March 19, 2019 12:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
No matter what the issue or event, we can always count on SECOND to find a way to say It's All Trump's Fault. So despite the fact that the max series design was begun in 2011 and Boeing was in constant communication with the FAA during the design and certification process (for example, the FAA had to approve the request to certify the max series as a "modification" instead of as a whole new design) I think we can take as a given that SECOND will work Trump into the thread somehow, and ignore anything it posts aloong those lines.

Boeing's design was unintentionally crappy, killing two plane-loads. The FAA didn't double-check Boeing's design because the FAA's budget was cut by Republicans in Congress, so that the FAA couldn't protect the World from Boeing's mistakes. This is how the world works, Signym, but you misunderstand the simplest things about Boeing doing the FAA's review of Boeing's design because the FAA didn't have the staff, because of Congress, to do the work:

Several FAA technical experts said in interviews that as certification proceeded, managers prodded them to speed the process. Development of the MAX was lagging nine months behind the rival Airbus A320neo. Time was of the essence for Boeing.

A former FAA safety engineer who was directly involved in certifying the MAX said that halfway through the certification process, “we were asked by management to re-evaluate what would be delegated. Management thought we had retained too much at the FAA. There was constant pressure to re-evaluate our initial decisions,” the former engineer said. “And even after we had reassessed it … there was continued discussion by management about delegating even more items down to the Boeing Company.”

Even the work that was retained, such as reviewing technical documents provided by Boeing, was sometimes curtailed.

“There wasn’t a complete and proper review of the documents,” the former engineer added. “Review was rushed to reach certain certification dates.”

When time was too short for FAA technical staff to complete a review, sometimes managers either signed off on the documents themselves or delegated their review back to Boeing.

www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-fa
a-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash/

This is roughly equivalent to Republicans in Congress cutting back the IRS budget so that it cannot audit tax returns. The result isn't a plane crash, instead, $2 trillion income goes unreported and $500 billion tax is not collected. It is a deliberate policy by Congress to give a tax cut to cheaters.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_evasion_in_the_United_States

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

RUE

Tuesday, March 19, 2019 12:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by second:
Several FAA technical experts said in interviews that as certification proceeded, managers prodded them to speed the process. Development of the MAX was lagging nine months behind the rival Airbus A320neo. Time was of the essence for Boeing.

A former FAA safety engineer who was directly involved in certifying the MAX said that halfway through the certification process, “we were asked by management to re-evaluate what would be delegated. Management thought we had retained too much at the FAA. There was constant pressure to re-evaluate our initial decisions,” the former engineer said. “And even after we had reassessed it … there was continued discussion by management about delegating even more items down to the Boeing Company.”

Even the work that was retained, such as reviewing technical documents provided by Boeing, was sometimes curtailed.

“There wasn’t a complete and proper review of the documents,” the former engineer added. “Review was rushed to reach certain certification dates.”

When time was too short for FAA technical staff to complete a review, sometimes managers either signed off on the documents themselves or delegated their review back to Boeing.

www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-fa
a-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash/

Wasn't the redesign and certification all begun in 2011? Remind me who was president then. Because I'm sure that president had to sign the budget or risk a shutdown.
Or are you not talking about the 2011-2016 period when the plane was being redesigned and put into service, and instead conflating two unrelated things?

SIGNYM

Tuesday, March 19, 2019 12:42 AM

The DOJ has opened a criminal inquiry of ... Boeing? The FAA? Both?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Tuesday, March 19, 2019 6:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Quote:
Originally posted by second:
Several FAA technical experts said in interviews that as certification proceeded, managers prodded them to speed the process. Development of the MAX was lagging nine months behind the rival Airbus A320neo. Time was of the essence for Boeing.

A former FAA safety engineer who was directly involved in certifying the MAX said that halfway through the certification process, “we were asked by management to re-evaluate what would be delegated. Management thought we had retained too much at the FAA. There was constant pressure to re-evaluate our initial decisions,” the former engineer said. “And even after we had reassessed it … there was continued discussion by management about delegating even more items down to the Boeing Company.”

Even the work that was retained, such as reviewing technical documents provided by Boeing, was sometimes curtailed.

“There wasn’t a complete and proper review of the documents,” the former engineer added. “Review was rushed to reach certain certification dates.”

When time was too short for FAA technical staff to complete a review, sometimes managers either signed off on the documents themselves or delegated their review back to Boeing.

www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-fa
a-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash/
Wasn't the redesign and certification all begun in 2011? Remind me who was president then. Because I'm sure that president had to sign the budget or risk a shutdown.
Or are you not talking about the 2011-2016 period when the plane was being redesigned and put into service, and instead conflating two unrelated things?

Redesign started in 2011. First flew new design Feb 2016. Certified by Mar 2017.

I think everything which occurred from 2010 to Jan 2017 was blamed on Bush, as far as Libtards go.

From what I can tell, Trump's Budget request for FY 2019 was $17.5B for FAA.
FY2010 was $9.336B and FY2017 was $10.0B for FAA.
Bobo must have had some Racist Policies and Gender Studies which were more important than funding Aviation Safety. Maybe his superior levels of illiteracy rendered him believing Aviation was the Bird Exhibit at the Zoo.

So. That is flatline funding during Bobo's Regime, and a sharp uptick in funding from Trump. And yes, FY 2019 began at the beginning of Oct 2018, before any crash of 737 MAX.
And yes, FY2010 was Bobo and the Rock-The-Vote Democraps legislating in CY 2009.

BTW, the slang term for the 737 was the Baby Boeing, because it was so much smaller and kinda fatter than most Boeings. Before MAX, it sat quite low, and the bottom of the engine nacelles were like a flattened oval. Most commercial birds you could sneak under the belly depending upon load and fuel state, but you had to walk around any Baby that wasn't on jacks.

The MAX engines are more efficient and larger around, so the suspension and Landing Gear had to be larger, creating different aerodynamics, causing introduction of MCAS.

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