The Battle for Iraq - Ethnic Cleansing
POSTED BY: Ghoulman
UPDATED: Sunday, June 22, 2025 01:22
VIEWED: 23789
PAGE 5 of 18
Quote:
Originally posted by debiji:
Ghoulman,
You typed:
"You refute my essay with meaningless, perhaps I should say contextless, fact. You wouldn't get far in debate class with crap like that so please, don't go around defining my essay as meaningless until you graduate. "
Perhaps you believe that I was characterizing your entire post as hyperbole. If so, I regret the misunderstanding, but I stand by the assertion that the following is hyperbole:
"If that's the case then why are the Americans attacking and killing an entire city with it's massive military might?"
Specifically, the part about "...killing an entire city...".
you typed:
"Take how you redefine my point about Ethnic Cleansing and Saddam actually being Sunni just as the people of Fallujah are mostly Sunni. You have reframed my sentence into a conflict between particular sects. Well, that's not what I'm talking about at all. It is beside the point. And it isn't what's going on. But it made me seem wrong... which was all you cared about."
I disagree. I haven't reframed the sentence. I did not agree with your statements, and I presented information that I thought justified my disagreement. You type that because Falluja is a Sunni town, they do not support Hussein. But, since Saddam is a Sunni (whether or not he is a "good" Sunni is not the point, since Sunni is also an ethnic group in Iraq) himself, IMO it doesn't follow that the people of Falluja would want him dead.
On the contrary, Saddam's support was strongest in the Sunni regions of Iraq, where all his relatives and the highest officials of his party came from. If you disagree, you need only say so and state your facts and arguments. No need to be condescending ("your post is nothing but trit refutations of facts you fail to understand.")
Also, you type that the Sunnis want "an Islamic State". My understanding is that the Shiites, led by Al Sistani, really want an Islamic State, and at first the CPA tried to shut Sistani out, but realized this was impossible, they needed him to control al-Sadr.
you typed:
"Do you really want me to believe the GWB White House will accept an Islamic Government? You really want me to believe Iraqies are happy to see the USA bomb 100000 people to death?"
Well, he did say it, and he seems to like the ones in Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Malaysia, and Turkey just fine. As to the second sentence, I never said "Iraqis are happy to see the USA bomb 100000 people to death" or anything like it. Perhaps you refer to the link to BBC forum that I posted. As I said, the opinions there are both for and against the action in Falluja. But they do not speak of 100000 anything, nor do they present opinions about the overall invasion, nor do they offer any way to infer how many Iraqis, percentage wise, hold these opinions.
You typed:
"...until you graduate."
"shallow"
"CNN whores"
"What reality are you on???"
"What are you concerned with? Tattered American honour perhaps?"
"no one has the balls to"
Sticks and stones, Sir. I fail to see how the 6 strings above contribute to the discourse in a constructive way. If you can, please enlighten me.
Respectfully,
debiji
Respectfully?
The thing is I don't make statments like ""...killing an entire city...". lightly. I've seen the shots of Fallujah yesterday. Looks like the Warsaw Getto on a bad day. You know, when the Nazis burned it down building by building.
America is murdering, torturing, and raping innocent people in an insane war. You can go around twisting facts to prop up your opinion all you want, but it doesn't change the reality. Fallujah is a war crime on a scale not seen since Vietnam.
About Saddam being a Sunni. Sure he was, by birth. But that isn't what he was as the Iraq tyrant. His supporters were a criminal gang of various people, many family oriented. It was like the mafia. Making a connection from the entire Sunni population to Saddam is specious at best. What you have done is use a speck of truth as proof to your opinion ab
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YOU know Geezer, on the issue of morally suspect, it doesn't have to be either/or. It can also be both or neither.
I'll be interested in your findings on the number of civilians killed in Fallujah. Please let us know what you find.
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Ethnic cleansing by the U.S. in Iraq is a ridiculous and irresponsible accusation!!!
Given that, it is not suprising in the least who started this thread, and who is supporting the statement.
If you want to talk about Ethnic cleansing, look at Bosnia and Milosivic. The U.N. did nothing except look upon it with alarm, and say "Gee, what your doing is bad, we think you should stop the rape, murder, genocide.
It was the U.S. that led the fight with NATO that stopped that atrocity. Where was the U.N.?
Or, more current events make you look at the Sudan situation. Again, what is the U.N. doing?
The U.N. is doing nothing except look upon it with alarm, and say "Gee, what your doing is bad, we think you should stop the rape, murder, genocide. How would you like some sanction put on you?"
Give us all a break, and at least try to temper
your blatant partisan rhetoric with even a tiny modicum of intelligent thought.
By the way, where is you outrage for France invading the Ivory Coast, wiping out there military. Oh my goodness, they did'nt even have the support of the U.N. to do this. Are they Crazy? Are they NeoFacist Nazi scum?
By your arguments they certianly are. Where is the outrage??????
Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'ma tellin' the truth.
BarnStormer
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Don't belittle the tortures and murders commited by the US military. It is policy. Saying it's a crime commited by a few is a bald faced lie. You can white wash all you like and yes, the White House and thier CNN/FOX propagandists present this watered down version of events all the time.
Truth isn't on the TV or CNNs website. In fact, these sources have been forced to take down outright lies over and over in the past few years because they were caught in terible lies. The truth about the POLICY of torture from the White House cannot be denied.
The USA is white washing a prison system wide policy of torture, rape, and murder from Iraq to GITMO (some murdered by American forces in captivity were children). The few soldiers on trial now are but sacrificial lambs.
Rumsfeld should be jailed for life let alone resign.
The truth is it wasn't a few soldiers but paid for assassins and torturerers "contracted" from the CIA. CIA that support the White House policies of course *snark*!
How many beheadings were the work of Americans?
How many videos were fakes from the CIA?
How many kidnappings seemed suspicious?
How many hospitals did the US simply bomb?
People desperately defending thier homes from a massive military attack from the worlds only super power don't have a policy Geezer.
What's your point here? That the people of Fallujah are evil or just as bad as Americans?
It's fun to say the other side is just as bad but that only works in 6 year old court. We are concerned with how American forces act. And they act like Nazi storm troopers. Disgusting.
Quote:
.. video beheading hostage Nicholas Berg. Maybe al-Zarqawi should resign.
Was he the one in the mask? LOL! Proof please?
Quote:
Nothing casual about it. A decision that had to be made in a split-second, given the knowledge that the insurgents had been boobytrapping their dead, ...
Oh man. Is it really acceptable behaviour from a Marine? Is this how Marines deal with things?
Maybe, but it's not how professional soldiers do it. That Marine should be up for murder, that's the law. But American troops don't obey any laws, the White House made sure of that. You know, even the Nazis obeyed the Geneva Convention.
Making excuses for a murderer shows how far some will go.
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Quote:
Originally posted by BarnStormer:
Ethnic cleansing by the U.S. in Iraq is a ridiculous and irresponsible accusation!!!
Given that, it is not suprising in the least who started this thread, and who is supporting the statement.
I think it's completely fair. Especially when we have undeniable proof of American forces commiting murder, torture, and rape of prisoners as policy as opposed to mere isolated "incidents".
Why not ethnic cleansing? It may not be that particularly but it's plain Fallujah was wipped from the Earth from April to about yesterday in a murderous campaign that involved months of bombing followed by house to house, building to building destruction.
Why?
The USAs record so far is horrific, you can deny it all you want but guess what... the rest of the world isn't American and has no problem seeing the actions into Fallujah as nothing short of a scorched earth policy directly from the criminals in the White House.
Proof - Fallujah is no more. It's a ruin.
Quote:
If you want to talk about Ethnic cleansing, look at Bosnia and Milosivic. The U.N. did nothing except look upon it with alarm, and say "Gee, what your doing is bad, we think you should stop the rape, murder, genocide.
It was the U.S. that led the fight with NATO that stopped that atrocity. Where was the U.N.?
Or, more current events make you look at the Sudan situation. Again, what is the U.N. doing?
The U.N. is doing nothing except look upon it with alarm, and say "Gee, what your doing is bad, we think you should stop the rape, murder, genocide. How would you like some sanction put on you?"
Give us all a break, and at least try to temper
your blatant partisan rhetoric with even a tiny modicum of intelligent thought.
By the way, where is you outrage for France invading the Ivory Coast, wiping out there military. Oh my goodness, they did'nt even have the support of the U.N. to do this. Are they Crazy? Are they NeoFacist Nazi scum?
By your arguments they certianly are. Where is the outrage??????
Off topic. More misdirection.
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Geezer- After this, I'll be off-line for a while so I'll try to fully respond in this post.
Apparently, the city of Falujah has been bombed to rubble. Mosques, schools, clinics, homes, hospitals, ambulances, water distribution... no service or home was spared from bombing. We dispatch wounded enemy in the field. You manage, somehow, to rationalize it all: The schools, mosques, homes' clinics, hospitals, wounded and dead MIGHT be used to attack, MIGHT be booby trapped, MIGHT house insurgents
How do you justify- if you can- w/holding water and aid from even the occupied parts of the city for a week? Keeping the only hospital from functioning?
Can you justify shooting down a group of Iraqi women strolling towards a checkpoint? What about making a group of kids run and then using them for target practice? Throwing prisoners down a well? I'd like to hear you rationalize that... I'm confident that you'll find a way.
But if you DO have a limit, where is it? Waiting for your reply.
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Barnstormer- What are you saying? That because the UN didn't stop ethnic cleansing in Bosnia and Sudan, that makes it somehow OK for us to practice? Is that your point? If not- what is?
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Quote:
Originally posted by InevitableBetrayal:
Ghoulman, you are spewing verbal sewage again.
Just a couple of points:Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
Ayman al-Zawahri is not a member of al Qaeda.
Zawahiri is a member of Al Qaida.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayman_al-Zawahiri
http://www.fbi.gov/mostwant/terrorists/teralzawahiri.htm
You may have had a moment of stupidity (not uncommon for you) and confused him with Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi. He is also aligned with Bin Ladin.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6268680/Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
The "insurgents" are not terrorrists from neighboring countries.
Well, they may not be primarily foreign fighters, but they are there. Apparently the Marines have been treating injured foreign fighters.
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/world/10197113.htm?1c
There may not be a bus tour to Fallujah, but Iraq is the jihad-du-jour, and jihadists from all over are converging there, just like they did in Afghanistan, Chechnya, Afghanistan before that, Kashmir, and other hot spots.Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
Fallujah is a Sunni town. That is, they are not Saddam supporters or even supporters of terrorists.
Saddam is a Sunni muslim. That's the reason that the sunnis (the minority in Iraq) held positions of power. Consequently, a lot of Sunnis are pretty peeved that they don't have the influence they used to.
http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/biography_saddam_hussein.htm
Also, lest you should think that there are no terrorists or supporters of terrorists or even any bad locals, think twice about the news of torture chambers there. Nick Berg was beheaded there. I saw the video. Not pleasant. Margeret Hassan was shot there. I'm pretty sure that the Koran has some specific things to say about that.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,138524,00.html
http://www.politicalgateway.com/news/read.html?id=1899
http://www9.sbs.com.au/theworldnews/region.php?id=98909®ion=6Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
If the USA is just attacking cities because of thier ethnicity then this is ethnic cleansing.
Of all the stupid things to say...Can you come up with even a scrap of evidence to support that? If that were the goal, why did the U.S. drop millions of leaflets warning civilians to get out? If they'd wanted to do some "ethnic cleansing" keeping the civilians there would have made more sense.
I'm a veteran of the Iraq conflict. I was there. On the ground. Being shot at and returning fire. I can tell you that we are not there to conduct "ethnic cleansing". We were there to remove Hussein in an effort to make the world a safer place.
You've obviously made up your mind to hate the U.S., the President, and the war, so I can't convince you otherwise. But I do know this: you don't know the first thing about Iraq. You don't know the situation there, or the U.S. strategy, or even basic facts like who the Sunnis support or who Ayman al-Zawahiri is. As an intelligence analyst who has spent the last 10 years studying Iraq, and who has done a combat tour there, allow me to invite you to shut your hole. Stop running off at the mouth concerning topics that you know nothing about. You're embarassing decent, well informed Canadians everywhere.
Edit:
I realize that you will no doubt lambast me for using some U.S. news sources, or cast aspersions on the U.S. intelligence community.
I also realize that you are so committed to your position that facts have no bearing, experience can be dismissed, and anyone who doesn't agree with you is misinformed or part of the conspiracy. [
InevitableBetrayal, we already got the names corrected. Why don't you ever bother to read what is written before you attack what is said?
Nice links... it's great you try to engage my assurtion that there are no terrorists in Iraq. It would be an interesting subject. However, all your links are from American sources that have be
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
YOU know Geezer, on the issue of morally suspect, it doesn't have to be either/or. It can also be both or neither.
Okay. You tell me, which is more morally suspect; shooting a wounded but still potentially dangerous enemy combatant during the heat of battle, or executing a bound and blindfolded woman hostage and videotaping it for propaganda? If you tell me there's no difference, the you are just as morally suspect as the terrorists.
Quote:
I'll be interested in your findings on the number of civilians killed in Fallujah. Please let us know what you find.
It usually takes IBC a week or so to verify and post their figures. It may be longer in Fallujah since anyone on the street is still subject to fire from the remaining insurgents. Just for perspective, analysis of the IBC figures for October shows 121 civilians dead due to coalition action, mostly from bombing of "insurgent positions" in Fallujah and Samarra, and 163 civilians killed by insurgents, mostly by car bombs and gunfire, in Baghdad and Mosul.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Oh please Geezer- the opinion was that the hospital would be used to treat Iraqi casualties- not that taking the hospital might save Iraqi lives in some indirect way.
Is that opinion dead? Unless someone brings evidence by tomorrow that the hospital was equipped by, and used by the US military to treat Iraqi casulties I'm going to assume that contention is dead.
I did some research and you are correct. The hospital was not closed to civilians, just cut off. Here from an AFP article:
Quote:
The military had allowed them to enter the general hospital on the western edge of the battle-scarred city on Saturday, but forbade the aid workers from going further for security reasons.
The hospital also had no patients to treat as a bridge leading to it was littered with roadside bombs, making entry perilous, said a military spokeswoman.
"The Red Crescent vehicles... were rerouted back to their origin because Fallujah General has no patients," she said.
"All patients are being diverted to the Ramadi and Jordanian hospitals until the bridge leading to the Fallujah General is completely clear of improvised explosive devices and the security of the area can provide safe passage of ambulances with patients," she told AFP.
So its not US soldiers denying use of the hospital, it was the insurgents and their mines and booby traps. US forces secured the hospital early on to deny its use to the enemy and make it available as soon as the approaches were cleared. Until then provisions had been made to treat wounded civilians in Ramadi, the Provicial capital, and the Jordanian hospital located near the US base just outside the City.
So now, instead of a ruined hulk of a building, the hospital is standing, waiting to be resupplied and the approaches opened to allow the liberated people of the city to get the treatment they need because of the terrorists and insurgents choosing to make this fight in their city. But you hate Bush...so the the hospital stands enpty amidst the ruins of a once peaceful City filled with dead and wounded women and children and occupied by terrorist US Marines hunting down the survivors on the express order of a US President determined to kill as many innoncent civilians as possible to make way for US annexation of Iraq's oilfields.
H
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