Real World Event Discussions

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria

POSTED BY: kpo
UPDATED: Monday, September 8, 2025 15:48
VIEWED: 105502
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SIGNYM

Wednesday, August 23, 2017 1:00 AM

Quote:
BTW, that's what I do for a living: I munch through raw data - both ours and other laboratory's - of trace chemical analyses. Sometimes its of commercial products, sometimes its of toxic releases. I do everything from look at the raw analysis data to mapping the results to giving the results a "sanity check", and I'm VERY good at what I do. VERY good. You have no idea of the breadth of errors that I'm capable of detecting. When our agency staff has a report they really want checked over, they give it to me. And just to give you an idea how closely our work resembles that of the OPCW, one of our chemists, who was trained in my group, just got a job at an international chemical-weapons-monitoring group doing an analysis that's almost exactly the same as ours.

That's why I go on so much about physical evidence. It can be very important; OTOH it can be equivocal, flawed, or even manipulated. - SIGNY

Sig, if you really knew your shit and could critically review evidence, you wouldn't fall for so many dumb conspiracy theories. Was it you or kiki who claimed that MH17 was shot down by a Ukrainian fighter jet?- KRAPO

Neither one of us, you lying sack of shit. But thanks for the bump!

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By the way, GSTRING, I predicted your response PERFECTLY
* ... and then you'll say I'm "too wordy". And then you will - as always- refuse to address the pertinent points, and respond with even more lies and even more bullshit personal attacks.*

And voila! Here it is http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61835&mid=1
035581#1035581

KPO

Wednesday, August 23, 2017 2:59 AM

Hmm. Here's the main page in the Russia invades Ukraine thread where you assert the plausibility of a Ukrainian fighter jet being responsible for downing MH17, including posting a video about how the MH17 wreckage has apparent machine gun damage:

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=58499&p=7

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"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521

SIGNYM

Wednesday, August 23, 2017 3:14 AM

Yes, I said it was a POSSIBLE explanation. I also said that they should be collecting the spent rounds or shrapnel, or testing the edges of the penetrations for trace metals, because the kind of trace metal will tell you what kind of ammunition was used.

Don't make me dig up my quotes because you know I will!

AND YOU'RE LYING AGAIN! But thanks for the bump!

-----------
By the way, GSTRING, I predicted your response PERFECTLY
* ... and then you'll say I'm "too wordy". And then you will - as always- refuse to address the pertinent points, and respond with even more lies and even more bullshit personal attacks.*

And voila! Here it is http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61835&mid=1
035581#1035581

KPO

Wednesday, August 23, 2017 3:57 AM

Quote:
Yes, I said it was a POSSIBLE explanation.

It was a theory that came straight from Russian propaganda. Their typical tactic: throw up lots of conspiracy theories to hide the truth. It was obvious bullshit from the start, and has now been proven totally false. And yet you were floating it and arguing it. Why? To defend Russia of course. Ever the eager parrot of Russian propaganda.

Some quotes from the thread:

KPO - "God, the Su-25 fighter jet theory. Massive holes in that theory include that the Su-25 is a ground attack jet - it can't fly as high as MH17 was flying, and it can barely reach the speeds MH17 was cruising at. But biggest of all - the pockmark damage is on the FRONT of MH17. According to the Russians the Su-25 was tailing MH17 - so any damage would have been to the rear of the plane. And there's no way the Su-25 could have swung round and shot the MH17 in the front, because it's not fast enough (God knows why it would do this anyway)."

Sig - "You don't have to shoot a plane from the front to shoot it in the front. It can be shot from below and from the side. And since bullets travel faster than planes, the planes which were presumably trailing MH17 don't need to travel faster than the target (although they could "close in" based in their relative speeds) they just need to get close enough for a good shot."

Even you must see that this is pathetic, in retrospect.

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521

SIGNYM

Wednesday, August 23, 2017 5:01 AM

In retrospect, KRAPO, it's still a legitimate argument. You need to be able to keep an open mind at the beginning of an investigation, because if you start closing off possibilities prematurely, you might overlook or deny evidence that doesn't fit your theory.

Unlike you, I've done nothing but agitate for evidence. Projectiles don't lie, they're like bullet casings from a crime scene. Which is why I was scanning the reports for any mention of shrapnel evidence. And as I said, more than once, I was willing to accept wherever the evidence led.

In looking at this again, I see that shrapnel was identified as form a 9M38 series BUK missile. https://www.om.nl/onderwerpen/mh17-crash/@96068/jit-flight-mh17-shot/ This missile was first deployed in 1978 and widely exported, and was replaced (in Russia) with the 9M317.

Curiously, the FINAL final report, the one that assigns liability, is still not issued. I haven't looked into this in detail. I've heard several things about it:

1) Kiev routinely used commercial airlines as cover for their military jets.
2) Either because of that, or for other reasons, they did NOT divert commercial traffic around the at-risk area, which makes them potentially liable, or partly liable.
3) Given that the identified missile was such an early type, it might have been captured from Ukraine's own weapons stores. That's what the Telegraph seems to think. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/01/the-embarrassing-question-l
eft-unanswered-by-the-mh17-report/

Possibly, the Commission sees contributory responsibility, or can't decide if "Russia" or the rebels are to blame, who was in the chain of command and especially who ordered the missile to be fired.

So I guess I've been waiting for that FINAL final report.

-----------
By the way, GSTRING, I predicted your response PERFECTLY
* ... and then you'll say I'm "too wordy". And then you will - as always- refuse to address the pertinent points, and respond with even more lies and even more bullshit personal attacks.*

And voila! Here it is http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61835&mid=1
035581#1035581

SIGNYM

Wednesday, August 23, 2017 8:00 AM

Quote:
Wait? What? She lied?? - GSTRING

KRAPO did:

Quote:
Was it you or kiki who claimed that MH17 was shot down by a Ukrainian fighter jet?- KRAPO

Neither one of us, you lying sack of shit. But thanks for the bump! - SIGNY

Hmm. Here's the main page in the Russia invades Ukraine thread where you assert the plausibility of a Ukrainian fighter jet being responsible for downing MH17, including posting a video about how the MH17 wreckage has apparent machine gun damage:

Yes, I said it was a POSSIBLE explanation, I never "claimed" that's what happened.
And GSTRING, infamous liar that YOU are, are all ready to pile on. Of course.

I noticed that since you had your arse handed to you here in the Charlottesville thread, where you were shown to a totalitarian jackass ... http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61855&p=7 ... you bailed from there and decided to try your luck lying here instead.

Good job!

THGRRI

Wednesday, August 23, 2017 6:42 PM

Quote:

Sig, if you really knew your shit and could critically review evidence, you wouldn't fall for so many dumb conspiracy theories. Was it you or kiki who claimed that MH17 was shot down by a Ukrainian fighter jet?- KPO

Neither one of us, you lying sack of shit. But thanks for the bump!

Oh yes you did. You trolled against the truth with every possible explanation; except, the Russians did it. Just another example of your trolling SIG.

KPO

Wednesday, August 23, 2017 7:59 PM

Quote:
You trolled against the truth with every possible explanation

"Trolled against the truth" - I like it. It's interesting reading that thread back a few years on. Siggy pushed false theories hard - without saying she necessarily believed them. She used pseudo-techno-speak, referenced her 'expertise' (just like a few posts above, on the sarin attack).

Why argue that hard for something you're not convinced by? To stop other people drawing the correct conclusion. Try to kick up dust and sow as much confusion as you can. Mask the truth. Argue that "there is no truth". Russian propaganda 101.

The only question is whether Sig is consciously doing what she's doing - a cynical and dishonest foot soldier in Putin's information war; or whether she's just uncritically parroting the line of Russian propaganda - a useful idiot. I would argue the latter.

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521

SIGNYM

Wednesday, August 23, 2017 11:44 PM

Quote:
Why argue that hard for something you're not convinced by? To stop other people drawing the correct conclusion?

Nope. To prevent people from JUMPING to conclusions, WHICH YOU DO ALL THE TIME. It's called "rush to judgment".

Yanno, in the sarin gas attack in East Ghouta, I was the one who kept telling you there's all kinds of evidence to look for ... for example, known stabilizers and impurities typical of a particular sarin manufacturer (each process is different), the presence of multiple shells of standard manufacture (indicating mass production) and not a hodge-podge of parts, eyewitness accounts and physical exams, wind patterns and the plume spread, intercepted communication etc.

Bellingcat infamously ran with their instant-conclusion Assad gassed his own people, based on the presence (IIRC) of the presence one tail fin, not thinking that that particular piece of evidence might have been planted, and Israel intelligence reported an "increase" in SAA communication, nobody suspecting that the "increase' might have been "Holy fuck! What was that?" "I don't know! That wasn't you?" . As it turns out, Assad gassed his own people was wrong because it was based on incomplete evidence.

Now, let's get to MH17. WHAT KINDS OF EVIDENCE MIGHT BE AVAILABLE?

Well, there are the videos that have been posted online. There are eyewitness accounts of the noise, plume, and plane; there was the pattern and scatter of the debris; radar data; communication from the ATC tower to the pilot; the black boxes; metal stress fractures in the airplane body (indicating either a fast onboard explosion or a slower breakup; intercepted communication; pattern of penetrations; and (to me) most importantly identification of the shrapnel or rounds which SHOULD be present at the crash site, embedded in the plane and bodies or traces left behind on the edges of the penetrations.

At the time, a lot of people were saying a lot of things. Some eyewitnesses said there was at least another plane. Misleading photos of a rebel "stealing" a teddy-bear were posted. There were reports of looting at the site and mishandling of evidence. Satellite photos purportedly showing drunken Ukie soldiers at THEIR OWN missile-launching site.

As is the case with any large event, there is a welter of data to sort through. I note, for example, the the identification of the shrapnel did not come until much, much later in the investigation.

OCTOBER 2015

Quote:
The Dutch Safety Board (DSB) reported yesterday that its evidence for concluding that a single ground-to-air Buk missile caused the crash of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 was
an explosive blast of sound on the cockpit voice recorder lasting 2.3 milliseconds;
a spray pattern of damage to the cockpit area of the fuselage;
three distinctively shaped metal fragments found in the bodies of the cockpit crew;
a chemical analysis of explosive residues missing 2 out of 3 warhead explosives;
and a match of paint samples collected up to 4 months apart.

SEPT 2016, another JIT report, fixing the location of the launch to rebel-controlled farmland near Pervomaiskyi.
https://www.politie.nl/en/news/2016/september/28/jit-flight-mh17-was-s
hot-down-by-a-buk-missile-from-a-farmland-near-pervomaiskyi.html

The final report fixing liability is still pending, but

Quote:
... aviation lawyers close to the MH17 case now believe there is no evidence of a crime – a war crime, a crime against humanity, or a crime of terrorism — that would meet international prosecution standards. ...

However, it will be difficult to prove that Russian forces, even if they provided the weapons, were aware of the alleged criminal act that the separatists were about to commit ...

... victims may rather want to pursue the avenue of civil liability of assorted organized actors, in particular of Ukraine [For directing air traffic over a conflict area? SIGNY], the Russian Federation [f

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KPO

Thursday, August 24, 2017 12:04 AM

G,

"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by rank dumbass-ery"

One of my favourite razors.

Sig,

Quote:
Nope. To prevent people from JUMPING to conclusions, WHICH YOU DO ALL THE TIME. It's called "rush to judgment".

But we keep being right, and all your alternate theories keep being wrong. Russia annexing Crimea with its "little green men". Russia waging war in the Donbass. MH17 being shot down by a Buk from separatist territory. The Khan Shaykun attack being Sarin. Etc, etc...

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521