Voter fraud - American election vastly corrupted
POSTED BY: Ghoulman
UPDATED: Monday, January 27, 2025 00:47
VIEWED: 29159
PAGE 2 of 16
Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
hmmm... which would take us back to hordes of random people with who knows what affiliations touching and retouching the ballots. If not introducing hordes of errors, then same problems with possibilities of fraud.Quote:
Originally posted by Ruxton:
Something like an independent group of citizens, perhaps selected at random like jury members, could be in charge of all U.S. elections. There HAS to be a paper trail, and NO electronic voting, ever.
I well remember hordes of older women tending voting booths in Ohio several decades ago. One would not DARE try to cheat with them on guard.
I tend to agree with JasonZZZ here (Goddess help me)... in Canada we have an independant body whos soul purpose is to manage elections - Elections Canada, which is Gov funded but staffed with Civil Servants who have no party influence or Minister bosses. Completely independant of party or corporate influence.
Here: we vote with paper and pen. Then we count them. It's not rocket science.
Of course, there are volenteers from all the parties who watch the voting but thier hands only ever touch a ballot before one takes it into the little booth to vote. After that it's hands off and only Elections Canada people may touch 'em. These votes are kept, locked away, for recounts if needed.
Which is why the fraud in the USA is obvious. And hey, this is the second time an American election was won by fraud. 2000 went to Gore after all.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
Sorry but I'm a non-believer. Conspiracy theories have never done it for me. I'm a the simplest answer is probably the correct one type of guy.
Besides the media has been extremly anti-bush for a while now. Do you really believe they would cover up a voter scandal if it really existed? Or are they in on it too. Is there a way we can fit the aligators in the sewers of new york into the theory cause that would just be cool.
The media is owned by three monsterous multinational Corproations. Each one a Bush supporter.
Anti-Bush media isn't on TV at least.
Let me muse a little on this concept of so called "liberal media".... shall I?
The "liberal media" charge comes only out of the Republican camp. And it's a lie. This sentement has been used by right wing liars since Nixon. The purpose is to imply a bias on the part of a media that, *pfft*, just parrots whatever belief the Government wants the public to believe anyho'.
Walter Cronkite once said that journalists often report stories from the point of view of the poor and disinfranchiased to offset government excess and pork barrel elite greed. This often brought a charge of "liberal media" from the right wing ... this is the real "liberal media".
So basically, the charge of "liberal media" is based on Republicans skewing the truth about people doing thier job.
Nixon!
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Ghoul, I'm very much with Geezer here. Ron Glass is becoming an angry ranting young man in my head. Please stop it.
Voting - by itself - is a very simple thing. Voting across thousands of districts and millions of citizens when both sides are lining up lawyers to challenge everything is not. There will always be problems in any "simple" system scaled to a size that friggin' large with all the checks and balances necessary to get it close to reasonable.
I've watched the election closely. If fraud was as rampant as you say, certain people would be ringing alarm bells very loudly. All I saw was complaints of certain tactics that probably did amount to attempts to slant the election. Some were turned around, some were not. In the end though, none of it amounted to enough to tip the scales - as it could have in the 2000 election.
Diebold Machines certainly are a problem (I'm a techie, I know), but weren't widespread enough - nor could they have slanted and edited every last vote. I've heard the exit poll story - I don't buy it without more proof.
Stop ranting. Start digging. Come back with more than rhetoric you got off a blog.
Radhil Trebors
Persona Under Construction
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Quote:
Originally posted by Radhil:
Ghoul, I'm very much with Geezer here. Ron Glass is becoming an angry ranting young man in my head. Please stop it.
Voting - by itself - is a very simple thing. Voting across thousands of districts and millions of citizens when both sides are lining up lawyers to challenge everything is not. There will always be problems in any "simple" system scaled to a size that friggin' large with all the checks and balances necessary to get it close to reasonable.
Funny, we in Canada never have a problem. Ever. What's Americas problem? hmmmm. Let's imagine...
Look - this is easy. Saying voting is too complex is, frankly, silly. The whole world manages to have votes without any corruption at all every day.
Quote:
I've watched the election closely. If fraud was as rampant as you say, certain people would be ringing alarm bells very loudly.
Who? I've already pointed out that three PRIVATE companies are in charge. That's wrong and frankly - fascistic. It's like giving all your money to a loan shark and hopeing he will be fair with you.
Quote:
All I saw was complaints of certain tactics that probably did amount to attempts to slant the election. Some were turned around, some were not. In the end though, none of it amounted to enough to tip the scales - as it could have in the 2000 election.
There are lots of reports and stories. Just look around the Net. And it's early yet!
Quote:
Diebold Machines certainly are a problem (I'm a techie, I know), but weren't widespread enough - nor could they have slanted and edited every last vote. I've heard the exit poll story - I don't buy it without more proof.
Techie are ya? Well, you might want to come around to the fact that those machines never worked. Were found not to work by a Senate Commitee. Were never believed to be proper by anyone.
Quote:
Stop ranting. Start digging. Come back with more than rhetoric you got off a blog.
This was my opinion, I never copy stuff.
Some people care about what's happening in the US. If you disagree fine but please don't misrepresent what people say just because you don't like it. Unless your looking for a seat on CNNs CrossFire... lol!
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Sigh! Here is the supposedly problem with exit poll disparity as clearly explained.
there isn't any exit poll disparity... The only problem is with media people (sigh) getting early data and stupidly reporting on them as real figures without understanding the reasoning of their inaccuracies.
read the article excerpts that points it out here:
Quote:
To compound the problem further, a server at Edison/Mitofsky malfunctioned shortly before 11 p.m. The glitch prevented access to any exit poll results until technicians got a backup system operational at 1:33 a.m. yesterday.
The crash occurred barely minutes before the consortium was to update its exit polling with the results of later interviewing that found Bush with a one-point lead. Instead, journalists were left relying on preliminary exit poll results released at 8:15 p.m., which still showed Kerry ahead by three percentage points.
It was only after the polls had closed in most states and the vote count was well underway in the East that it became clear that Bush was in a stronger position in several key battlegrounds, including Ohio, than early exit polls suggested.
Some problems are inevitable. A total of 12,047 randomly selected voters were interviewed Tuesday as they left their polling places, and those results were fed into computers. The accumulated results were reported several times over the course of Election Day.
Results based on the first few rounds of interviewing are usually only approximations of the final vote. Printouts warn that estimates of each candidate's support are unreliable and not for on-air use. Those estimates are untrustworthy because people who vote earlier in the day tend to be different from those who vote in the middle of the day or the evening. For instance, the early national sample Tuesday that was 59 percent female probably reflected that more women vote in the day than the evening.
That is why the early leaks anger Lenski. "The basic issue here is the leaking of this information without any sophisticated understanding or analysis, in a way that makes it look inaccurate," he said.
The article is here, but you need registration.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A23580-2004Nov3.html
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
Funny, we in Canada never have a problem. Ever. What's Americas problem? hmmmm. Let's imagine...
Look - this is easy. Saying voting is too complex is, frankly, silly. The whole world manages to have votes without any corruption at all every day.
Without any corruption? Without a single mangled vote? Without one politician trying to edge things their way? You're crazy. Claim it's better off if you like - don't claim the entire world's perfect like that.
I'm not denying we have corruption either. I'm just saying - in this case - it wouldn't have been enough to make a difference.
Quote:
Who? I've already pointed out that three PRIVATE companies are in charge. That's wrong and frankly - fascistic. It's like giving all your money to a loan shark and hopeing he will be fair with you.
In charge of what, exactly? "Voting" is a broad category, you know. The elections and counting themselves are handled and organized state by state, down to the local level. Beyond those levels you have the voting methods themselves. There's no federal overruling mandate to do such and such - the states run their elections, an official from each state reports the results to the feds. The TV stations guess and/or make up crap as they go along. So where exactly do these companies come in and rewrite the entire tree of results?
(fine job they're doin' too, when one state held the whole of the result)
Quote:
There are lots of reports and stories. Just look around the Net. And it's early yet!
Early? It's over. I've seen the reports, as I've said. They amount to stupid people pulling off stupid crap. Not a grand conspiracy. Certainly not a successful one.
Quote:
Techie are ya? Well, you might want to come around to the fact that those machines never worked. Were found not to work by a Senate Commitee. Were never believed to be proper by anyone.
So were punch holes and hanging chads. They still got used. As the saying goes "close enough for government work". I don't like it. I want the Diebold machines outta there too. I've heard all about the studies, thought I don't have figures and facts here in front of me. But then, I'm not making the accusation that everything is rigged.
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This was my opinion, I never copy stuff.
If it's your opinion, it's awfully familiar.
Quote:
Some people care about what's happening in the US. If you disagree fine but please don't misrepresent what people say just because you don't like it. Unless your looking for a seat on CNNs CrossFire... lol!
*rolls eyes* You don't know me son. You don't know how much I care. You don't know who I've argued, shouted at, screamed at, for a different result to this election. You seem to be misrepresenting what *I* say quite well.
Radhil Trebors
Persona Under Construction
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Sigh! Here is the supposedly problem with exit poll disparity as clearly explained.
there isn't any exit poll disparity... The only problem is with media people (sigh) getting early data and stupidly reporting on them as real figures without understanding the reasoning of their inaccuracies.
read the article excerpts that points it out here:Quote:
SNIP!
The article is here, but you need registration.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A23580-2004Nov3.html
... that's a good point, exit polls aren't an accurate measure of voting results.
However...
The discrepincy is rather large. Not even an exit poll should be THAT off. Still, it's no basis for an arguement that there was election fraud.
Jebus, I'm agreeing with JasonZZZ again. Maybe I should put a large obnoxious graphic in my signature too?
Sorry Jason, I just dislike those things. As an old tech support BOFH they make me think of those poor people with modems who will have a hard time downloading that. Get it down to only 15K at least please. Right now it's 40, that's too much. And thanx for a making a real contribution to this thread!
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Quote:
Originally posted by Radhil:
... SNIP! ...Quote:
This was my opinion, I never copy stuff.
If it's your opinion, it's awfully familiar.Quote:
Some people care about what's happening in the US. If you disagree fine but please don't misrepresent what people say just because you don't like it. Unless your looking for a seat on CNNs CrossFire... lol!
*rolls eyes* You don't know me son. You don't know how much I care. You don't know who I've argued, shouted at, screamed at, for a different result to this election. You seem to be misrepresenting what *I* say quite well.
Um. You seemed to say I'd stolen my "opinion" from some blog somewhere. I was just defending myself. Sorry if you misunderstood. No, I don't know you and I didn't imply you don't care about America.
Is there something you want to show me that sounds like what I wrote? Please, feel free to post it. Remember - finding a blog that sounds like the rantings of some dumb ass Canuck on some island somewhere isn't going to be easy.
And it's true... there isn't corruption in our elections. No messing with the votes. This is not difficult to accomplish yet you insist it is.
It isn't.
Not just in my opinion, but the opinion of Canadians. And Elections Canada is a federal body that covers the entire nation, this keeps provincial politics out of the mix.
And it's far, far, from over. Just because the Media declares it's over doesn't mean the people who voted are satisfied with the whole fiasco. I predict you WILL hear a lot about this in the months to come. And fraud will be what you hear.
And the Diebold "voting" machines were incredibably rigged (at least some showed up with hundreds of Bush votes already programmed into them!). Surely as a "techie" you know this is easy to accomplish with those travesties of technology. Right? I've seen the tech info myself but feel free to post it if your into that.
Is Ghoulman ever wrong about these things? Ask around.
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Just keep doing what you're doing. Lying, making absurdly ficticious, baseless stories and mindless propaganda is EXACTLY what helped Kerry lose. The Michael Moore, conspiracy nut case folks are going to have to be hog tied and shut away in a closet before the Dems will EVER challenge for either the White House or any real power in Congress.
First it was the Butterfly ballots, and y'all bitched and moaned till a change was made.
Now it's urban legends about the NEW machines. My god, you folks sound like spoiled brats who don't get their way.
Bush won. Kerry lost.
Get over it. Nobody likes a sore loser.
Sore loser.
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
Um. You seemed to say I'd stolen my "opinion" from some blog somewhere. I was just defending myself. Sorry if you misunderstood. No, I don't know you and I didn't imply you don't care about America.
Is there something you want to show me that sounds like what I wrote? Please, feel free to post it. Remember - finding a blog that sounds like the rantings of some dumb ass Canuck on some island somewhere isn't going to be easy.
Probably not. I *did* say you'd stolen your opinion from somewhere, but only because it seems to be the fashionable thing to do these days - to read something, and then parade it about as true. If the Internet says it, it must be true, after all.
I don't have some example for you - I've simply seen quite a lot of conspiracy theories. And only theories. Yours is certainly a bit more colorful, better written, but still that. A rant with not much more than it's loudness to carry it. A few facts and name drops to spice it up. Not meaning to be offensive there, but that's what I see.
Quote:
And it's true... there isn't corruption in our elections. No messing with the votes. This is not difficult to accomplish yet you insist it is.
It isn't.
Not just in my opinion, but the opinion of Canadians. And Elections Canada is a federal body that covers the entire nation, this keeps provincial politics out of the mix.
You seem to have a healthy fear of three corporate companies controlling... "something" about our elections... and yet there's only one entity that controls yours. Interesting.
All right. I bite. How exactly does this Elections Canada control things? What's the trick to eliminating biases? Who heads it up?
Quote:
And it's far, far, from over. Just because the Media declares it's over doesn't mean the people who voted are satisfied with the whole fiasco. I predict you WILL hear a lot about this in the months to come. And fraud will be what you hear.
Kerry declared it over. The media then when nuts reporting it. They were reporting "Bush's confidence" all morning (and that sure grated my teeth) but that wasn't a finish line. Ohio wasn't even officially called by the news outlets until at least an hour later, when they got better and confirmable info on the provisional ballot question. Call me crazy, but I tend to think Kerry'd be the one to trust on whether or not he lost.
I don't believe the official count has been submitted yet, but there's only so much math you can do.
Quote:
Is Ghoulman ever wrong about these things? Ask around.
Is Radhil ever less than friggin' stubborn when there's not a good arguement? Ask around. ;)
Radhil Trebors
Persona Under Construction
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