Syria and Ukraine, Catalan and Kurdistan: what do they have in common?
POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Saturday, November 16, 2024 22:06
VIEWED: 16012
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For me, it mostly seems to come down to "ends versus means".
Like most people here, I share the ideal society" democratic, with a free exchange of views and information, where everyone gets their fair share and has a say in their collective and individual futures.
I know that bombing nations will NOT get you there (neither will supporting vast differences in wealth). OTOH, I cringe at the thought of nations where some people are beaten down and taken advantage of.
Also, while I believe in in-place problem-solving, for SOME nations where some people are deprived of their health, speech, and lives, fleeing is the only option. So there are conundrums that I've yet to figure out.
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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.
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Quote:
are you saying, KPO that Russia could REALLY have taken Crimea "by force"... if it was truly against the will of the people?
First of all there is no question that it was by force, if I stick a gun to your head and take your wallet, then that is theft by force. Same with Crimea.
Secondly, if a majority of the people living there were happy with it does that make it OK? A big country using military aggression against a smaller peaceful, sovereign country to take new territory for itself?
Look, the answer is obvious. It is NOT ok. In the 21st century countries should not solve territorial disputes with other peaceful countries by force . You talk like you are here for a reasonable discussion, but as ever, you can't and won't criticise Russia for even the most flagrant of international crimes.
Quote:
Here are some examples of Crimeans interacting with these "polite green men" or "little green men"
Pointless. *shakes head* Should I post photos of patriotic Ukrainians in Slovyansk and Kramatorsk (cities liberated from the separatists) to prove that Donbas is pro-Ukrainian?
Quote:
So there is more to talk about than just being "pro/anti-Russian". There is more to the world than Russia v The West
The whole point of this thread is to be pro-Russia and/or anti- the West. That's your agenda, and the point of every thread you post (with rare exceptions about music, cookery, or rain in your area). Which is fine, but let's call it what it is.
As for having reasonable, nuanced, philosophical discussions about revolutions, rights of secession/self-determination, 'terrorists' or 'freedom fighters' - I have never found you receptive to them before. You argue in line with Russian state-controlled media every time, and you are not interested in being anything other than black and white. The Maidan revolution was a "coup" and the government in Kiev are "Nazis", the separatists are "freedom fighters", the anti-Assad rebels are all "terrorists", Turkey, the Gulf States, the USA, KPO, G and anyone who criticises Russia are all "pro-ISIS"... etc. etc.
By all means have your agenda, and push it, but you're not going to fool anyone with this "let's come together and explore ideas in a reasonable way" act.
It's not personal. It's just war.
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Quote:I'm trying to figure out the role of "the will of the people" versus (or in addition to) the role of "patron" nations in the event of a breakaway state, and you keep trying to shoehorn the discussion back into the "Russia is a wallet-robber".
are you saying, KPO that Russia could REALLY have taken Crimea "by force"... if it was truly against the will of the people?- SIGNY
First of all there is no question that it was by force, if I stick a gun to your head and take your wallet, then that is theft by force. Same with Crimea.- KPO
Just to expand the discussion outward: What level of violence do you think is NECESSARY to impose an unwelcome political result on a vast majority of people?
Quote:
Secondly, if a majority of the people living there were happy with it does that make it OK? A big country using military aggression against a smaller peaceful, sovereign country to take new territory for itself?
I dunno - does it? In one sense, you could say that the will of the people is actually being respected. They ARE happy with the outcome, are they not? What if you have a big nation... say, Britain or the USA ... intervening in Turkey, and creating a Kurdistan where the Kurds are very happy with the outcome? Or something like NATO intervening in Serbia to create Kososvo, where the Kosovars are very happy?
Good thing?
Bad precedent?
I dunno - You tell me!
Quote:Do you apply that same precept to the USA, or to NATO?
Look, the answer is obvious. It is NOT ok. In the 21st century countries should not solve territorial disputes with other peaceful countries by force.
Also, what about separatist movements? Is a nation allowed to solve separatism by force?
Quote:
You talk like you are here for a reasonable discussion, but as ever, you can't and won't criticise Russia for even the most flagrant of international crimes.
That's not the point of this thread, altho YOU seem to want to wrench it in that direction. I'll get to some of the conundrums in a bit.
Quote:You've already posed pictures and vids of Maidan and of pro-Kiev parades, which we already discussed, to make that very point. No need to post again.
Here are some examples of Crimeans interacting with these "polite green men" or "little green men"- SIGNY
Pointless. *shakes head* Should I post photos of patriotic Ukrainians in Slovyansk and Kramatorsk (cities liberated from the separatists) to prove that Donbas is pro-Ukrainian?- KPO
My reasons to post the pictures is not to claim that it's representative of EVERYONE in Crimea, simply to provide another part of the picture: at least SOME people welcomed the little green men.
Quote:
So there is more to talk about than just being "pro/anti-Russian". There is more to the world than Russia v The West- SIGNY
The whole point of this thread is to be pro-Russia and/or anti- the West. That's your agenda, and the point of every thread you post (with rare exceptions about music, cookery, or rain in your area). - KPO
No, that's not true. YOU seem to be the one who wants to keep talking about that topic, ad infinitum, ad naseum! You can't seem to get off it!
Quote:Yes, let's call it "KPO's obsession with Russia".
Which is fine, but let's call it what it is.
Quote:
As for having reasonable, nuanced, philosophical discussions about revolutions, rights of secession/self-determination, 'terrorists' or 'freedom fighters' - I have never found you receptive to them before. You argue in line with Russian state-controlled media every time, and you are not interested in being anything other than black and white. The Maidan revolution was a "coup" and the government in Kiev are "Nazis", the separatists are "freedom fighters", the anti-Assad rebels are all "terrorists", Turkey, the Gulf States, the USA, KPO, G and anyone whoNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
I'm trying to figure out the role of "the will of the people"
You're trying to rewrite history, and call Putin's annexation of Crimea 'a secession'. When Hitler annexed the Sudetenland from Czechoslovakia was that a secession? Why not?
Here's a photo of some of the residents of the Sudetenland welcoming the Nazi's polite grey stormtroopers:
And a few weeks after the annexation the Nazis held elections in the Sudetenland, in which 97.32% voted for the Nazis. According to Wiki: "About a half million Sudeten Germans joined the Nazi Party which was 17.34% of the total German population in Sudetenland (the average NSDAP membership participation in Nazi Germany was merely 7.85% in 1944). This means the Sudetenland was one of the most pro-Nazi regions of the Third Reich."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudetenland#Sudetenland_as_part_of_Nazi_
Germany
All sounds a lot like Russia and Crimea, doesn't it? So why was Crimea a 'secession' and a shining example of democracy in action, and the Sudetenland wasn't?
Quote:
Quote:
kpo - Secondly, if a majority of the people living there were happy with it does that make it OK? A big country using military aggression against a smaller peaceful, sovereign country to take new territory for itself?
Signy - I dunno - does it?
No! What's wrong with you.
Quote:
Good thing?
Bad precedent?
I dunno - You tell me!
I already have.
Quote:
The interim government was a result of a coup
See, I knew you'd go back to brainlessly calling the Maidan revolution a coup. Do you remember when I asked you to say what about it constituted a coup, and you couldn't answer? Here it is again:
"In what way IS it a coup? As far as I can tell your equation is: CHANGE OF GOVERNMENT + SOME VIOLENCE = COUP. You don't think revolutions can be violent? Was the French Revolution of 1789 a 'coup'?"
It's not personal. It's just war.
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Quote:Who says Sudetenland wasn't democratic? How does the old joke go?
I'm trying to figure out the role of "the will of the people"- SIGNY
You're trying to rewrite history, and call Putin's annexation of Crimea 'a secession'. When Hitler annexed the Sudetenland from Czechoslovakia was that a secession? Why not?
Here's a photo of some of the residents of the Sudetenland welcoming the Nazi's polite grey stormtroopers:
And a few weeks after the annexation the Nazis held elections in the Sudetenland, in which 97.32% voted for the Nazis. According to Wiki: "About a half million Sudeten Germans joined the Nazi Party which was 17.34% of the total German population in Sudetenland (the average NSDAP membership participation in Nazi Germany was merely 7.85% in 1944). This means the Sudetenland was one of the most pro-Nazi regions of the Third Reich."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudetenland#Sudetenland_as_part_of_Nazi_
Germany
All sounds a lot like Russia and Crimea, doesn't it? So why was Crimea a 'secession' and a shining example of democracy in action, and the Sudetenland wasn't?
Q: What the difference between Bush and Hitler?
A: Hitler was voted in.
And, he was!
People CAN vote for governments and institutions that ultimately prove to be their undoing. Just because a process is "democratic" doesn't mean it's intelligent or ethical.
Quote:
kpo - Secondly, if a majority of the people living there were happy with it does that make it OK? A big country using military aggression against a smaller peaceful, sovereign country to take new territory for itself?
Signy - I dunno - does it?
No! What's wrong with you.- KPO
So then, you're not in favor of the secession of Kosovo?
Quote:Indeed you have. So, you're not in favor of the secession of Kosovo. Got it.
Good thing?
Bad precedent?
I dunno - You tell me!- SIGNY
I already have.- KPO
Quote:
The interim government was a result of a coup- SIGNY
See, I knew you'd go back to brainlessly calling the Maidan revolution a coup. Do you remember when I asked you to say what about it constituted a coup, and you couldn't answer? Here it is again:
"In what way IS it a coup? As far as I can tell your equation is: CHANGE OF GOVERNMENT + SOME VIOLENCE = COUP. You don't think revolutions can be violent? Was the French Revolution of 1789 a 'coup'?"
What is the difference between a revolution and a coup?
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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.
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As you can see, KPO was stymied by the topic of Kosovo, because he was "for" Kosovo but "against" Crimea, for no reason other than prejudice.
But the topic went pretty far afield of Syria : Ukraine to the prospect of secessionist movements in general. This might be a good time to restart the discussion.
Hillary is a WAR CANDIDATE, and that's just what we need, right? More war?
G, THUGR, MAL4: Oh BTW, please define intelligence.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60903&p=4#1
018100
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Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:Quote:
are you saying, KPO that Russia could REALLY have taken Crimea "by force"... if it was truly against the will of the people?
First of all there is no question that it was by force, if I stick a gun to your head and take your wallet, then that is theft by force. Same with Crimea.
Not to worry kpo. We all see through the stupidity of her argument.
____________________________________________
Russia trolls get contract extension
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60719
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THUGR: Haters gonna hate. But, thanks for the bump!
Hillary is a WAR CANDIDATE, and that's just what we need, right? More war?
G, THUGR, MAL4: Oh BTW, please define intelligence.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60903&p=4#1
018100
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Quote:
As you can see, KPO was stymied by the topic of Kosovo, because he was "for" Kosovo but "against" Crimea, for no reason other than prejudice.= SIGNY
SIGNYM: Liars gonna lie.
I *admire* how you are able to lie for yourself AND other people. You really should run for office. Seriously, there's enough stupid people who would listen to your noise that you could get elected to just about anything. 'Course, then you'd find out how you had absolutely no clue what you were talking about before hand. No worries! You'll just lie to yourself about that as well. = GSTRING
Hey dood, YOU were the one who brought up the comparison in the other thread. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=58499&p=31#
1018393
This is how it went
Quote:
Dood, I believe the term you're looking for is not "invasion" but "proxy war". There are reasons why there is more than one term, and that's because there is more than one kind of war. = SIGNY
You mean like Syria. =GSTRING
Yes, like Syria = SIGNY
Calling me a "liar" is a really weak argument. You have to show me ... and as importantly you have to show other people ... where what I said is "false" and "misleading". On what points do the comparisons differ? Be specific.
Hillary is a WAR CANDIDATE, and that's just what we need, right? More war?
G, THUGR, MAL4: Oh BTW, please define intelligence.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60903&p=4#1
018100
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What's this Sig, you've given up on your campaigning for Trump and started bumping old threads of arguments that you've lost?
"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."
Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Evidence the Syrian regime sponsors ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521
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