Real World Event Discussions
Syria and Ukraine, Catalan and Kurdistan: what do they have in common?
POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Saturday, November 16, 2024 22:06
VIEWED: 16012
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Monday, October 2, 2017 1:22 PM
Quote:You could make the same case against Kiev due to its treatment of ethnic Russians. But you won't, because - well - you're a twisted sociopathic fuck.
Originally posted by kpo:
But the key factor in support for Kosovan independence is the campaign of terror and ethnic cleansing that the Serb government carried out against the ethnic Albanian population in the 90's. The UN ruled that Serbia had carried out a "systematic campaign of terror, including murders, rapes, arsons and severe maltreatments" and cited several war crimes and crimes against humanity including massacres of unarmed men, women and children, and the forced displacement of tens of thousands.
Trump is not the problem. He set himself against the Deep State's agenda. And the Deep State's been heading for WWIII for years.
As for you, you're just a Deep State useful idiot, furthering its agenda. So I hope you enjoy cesium in your coffee. You've earned it.
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Monday, October 2, 2017 6:47 PM
KRAPO, I'll get to the rest or your post later, but this is for starters ...
Quote:
But here's the reality: You're for the secession of Kosovo because the overwhelming majority was for it, but not for the secession of Crimea even though the overwhelming majority was for it.- SIGNY
I explained clearly why I support Kosovo's secession (and re-posted that explanation multiple times) so there's no need to put words in my mouth. Here it is for a 4th time:
KPO (2014):
"Independence/secessionist movements need to be considered on a case by case basis, balancing such principles as the right of self-determination, national sovereignty, and the region's unique history. No two situations are the same, and no two people will balance all these factors in the same way.
In the case ofKosovoCrimea ethnicSerbsUkrainians see the land as belonging to their country, but the people living there don't feel they belong toSerbiaUkraine at all. They are mostly ethnicAlbanianRussian, and for nearly 500 years they lived underMuslim, OttomanRussian control.
But the key factor in support forKosovanCrimean independence is the campaign of terror and ethnic cleansing that theSerb governmentUkrainian neo-Nazis, as part of the Ukrainian security forces, carried out against the ethnicAlbanianRussian-speaking populationin the 90'simmediately after the coup. TheUN ruled that Serbiacoup government had carried out a "systematic campaign of terror, including murders, rapes, arsons and severe maltreatments" and cited several war crimes and crimes against humanity including massacres of unarmed men, women and children, and the forced displacement of tens of thousands.
For me personally, I think it's quite harsh to expect theKosovans [sic]Crimeans to live again underSerbianUkrainian rule, given the way theSerbianUkrainian government treated themin the 1990s."
See?
You pretend to take a balanced, reasoned view of secession, but you come down on the anti-Russian side every time.
So if you want to do a reasoned, point-to-point comparison, how about starting with the points that you made about Kosovo?
-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake
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Monday, October 2, 2017 7:07 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:Quote:You could make the same case against Kiev due to its treatment of ethnic Russians.
Originally posted by kpo:
But the key factor in support for Kosovan independence is the campaign of terror and ethnic cleansing that the Serb government carried out against the ethnic Albanian population in the 90's. The UN ruled that Serbia had carried out a "systematic campaign of terror, including murders, rapes, arsons and severe maltreatments" and cited several war crimes and crimes against humanity including massacres of unarmed men, women and children, and the forced displacement of tens of thousands.
When you live in the Russian propaganda bubble, as you do, you can "make a case" for all sorts of fantastical bullshit that has no basis in reality.
But well done for engaging with my actual words on the subject! Siggy, you could learn something from your rabid ideological bosom-buddy.
-------------------------------------------------------
"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."
Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521
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Monday, October 2, 2017 7:34 PM
Quote:So, are you ready to expand on why Kosovo is different from Crimea? Because I DID engage "in your actual words"; in fact, I quoted you extensively (scroll up to my previous post). I didn't do that earlier because I thought your post was so much blah-blah-blah; so much rationalization not worth discussing.
But well done for engaging with my actual words on the subject! Siggy, you could learn something from your rabid ideological bosom-buddy.
******
Meanwhile, in other hot secessionist topics ...
Quote:I hope those polls were better than the Brexit polls and the USA 2016 Presidential polls.
Catalan leader calls for international mediation in Madrid stand-off
MADRID (Reuters) - The leader of Catalonia called for international mediation on Monday to resolve a stand-off with Madrid, the day after hundreds were injured as police tried to forcibly disrupt a referendum on independence that had been ruled illegal.
“It is not a domestic matter,” Carles Puigdemont told a news conference on Monday. “It’s obvious that we need mediation.”
Sunday’s events in the autonomous region dramatically raised the temperature in a festering split between Madrid and Barcelona and made it harder for the two sides to sit down to try to find a political compromise.
Images of riot police using rubber bullets and batons in a show of force to stop the vote shocked Spain and drew international condemnation. Authorities said almost 900 people had been injured. ...
Puigdemont had gone ahead with the referendum in defiance of a court order. On Monday, he said the vote was valid and binding, and had to be applied.
He urged Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy to say whether he was in favor of mediation in talks over the region’s future, which he said should be overseen by the European Union. He added that he had received no indication that the EU could sponsor this mediating role, and said Brussels had been timid and lacked courage on the matter.
In a statement issued shortly before Puigdemont made his proposal, the European Commission said: “We call on all relevant players to now move very swiftly from confrontation to dialogue. Violence can never be an instrument in politics.”
The ballot, which asked voters if they wanted an independent republic, has no legal status as it was banned by Spain’s Constitutional Court for being at odds with the 1978 constitution, which states Spain cannot be broken up.
The overwhelming “Yes” vote among the 42 percent who authorities said had made it to the polls was not a surprise as those favoring continued union had been expected to stay at home en masse. Opinion polls in the run-up to the vote had put support for independence at only around 40 percent.
Quote:
On Monday, Justice Minister Rafael Catala said Spain could use its constitutional power to suspend Catalan’s existing autonomy if the regional parliament declared independence.
“We will use the entire force of the law. Our obligation is to resolve problems and we’ll do it, even though using certain measures might hurt,” he said in a television interview.
The article leaves me with a few questions:
If the opinion polls were correct, and only 40 pct of Catalans were in favor of independence, why would those against independence choose to stay home? I think they were afraid of losing. They felt they could most assuredly "win" by spoiling the vote (passive aggression); instead of taking a chance by participating. Because if they had participated wholeheartedly and LOST, that would have been the end of their game. The impression that I have is they even they felt that they didn't have as much support as "the opinion polls" suggested, and were fearful of losing in a democratic process.
Similar question about the violent police action of the Spanish government: If they felt that most people were against independence, and the Spanish authorities were going to reject the vote anyway, why send in the police with teargas and rubber bullets, con
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Tuesday, October 3, 2017 12:33 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
In the case ofKosovoCrimea ethnicSerbsUkrainians see the land as belonging to their country, but the people living there don't feel they belong toSerbiaUkraine at all. They are mostly ethnicAlbanianRussian, and for nearly 500 years they lived underMuslim, OttomanRussian control.
But the key factor in support forKosovanCrimean independence is the campaign of terror and ethnic cleansing that theSerb governmentUkrainian neo-Nazis, as part of the Ukrainian security forces, carried out against the ethnicAlbanianRussian-speaking populationin the 90'simmediately after the coup. TheUN ruled that Serbiacoup government had carried out a "systematic campaign of terror, including murders, rapes, arsons and severe maltreatments" and cited several war crimes and crimes against humanity including massacres of unarmed men, women and children, and the forced displacement of tens of thousands.
For me personally, I think it's quite harsh to expect theKosovans [sic]Crimeans to live again underSerbianUkrainian rule, given the way theSerbianUkrainian government treated themin the 1990s."
Interesting insight into how your brain works. When confronted with facts you don't like, you just cross out words and replace them until the whole thing fits your worldview
Sorry Sig, you can't just make up war crimes out of thin air to bolster your argument.
Quote:
So if you want to do a reasoned, point-to-point comparison, how about starting with the points that you made about Kosovo?
Sure. In Kosovo we have:
1. Systematic war crimes - massacres, ethnic cleansing, etc
2. Carried out by government forces
3. Confirmed by UN reports, ICC rulings, etc.
In Crimea we have:
1. No war crimes committed by the Ukrainian government, ever. But some hype, manufactured scare stories and propaganda
2. Spread by Russia
3. Believed by idiots.
So, in the absence of any kind of evidence of war crimes in Crimea, one wonders what kind of nonsense arguments you've got lined up next. Some trumped up, Russian propaganda-hyped "war crimes" in other parts of Ukraine? (as if the separatists are not guilty of this, lol). Isolated incidents like the Odessa fire, which was not carried out by the Ukrainian government and certainly wasn't part of anything "systematic"?
-------------------------------------------------------
"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."
Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521
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Tuesday, October 3, 2017 12:35 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
... no topic ... trolling ... no facts ... no discussion ... more trolling ... yeah - I have that covered because I'm a sick propagandist sociopathic fuck
Trump is not the problem. He set himself against the Deep State's agenda. And the Deep State's been heading for WWIII for years.
As for you, you're just a Deep State useful idiot, furthering its agenda. So I hope you enjoy cesium in your coffee. You've earned it.
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Tuesday, October 3, 2017 12:48 AM
Quote:https://www.icc-cpi.int/legalAidConsultations?name=pr997
Originally posted by kpo:
In UKRAINE we have:
1. No war crimes committed by the Ukrainian government, ever. But some hype, manufactured scare stories and propaganda
Ukraine accepts ICC jurisdiction over alleged crimes committed between 21 November 2013 and 22 February 2014
http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=20267
UN report on 2014-16 killings in Ukraine highlights “rampant impunity”
Quote:The ICC and the UN
2. Spread by Russia
Quote:
3. Believed by idiots
People who look for facts, instead of sociopathic propagandist fucks.
And btw, the Kosovars weren't innocent of war crimes themselves. Yanno, just to be complete and factual, unlike you.
Trump is not the problem. He set himself against the Deep State's agenda. And the Deep State's been heading for WWIII for years.
As for you, you're just a Deep State useful idiot, furthering its agenda. So I hope you enjoy cesium in your coffee. You've earned it.
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Tuesday, October 3, 2017 1:08 AM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/catalonia-and-spain-map-out-their
-next-moves-after-chaotic-vote-for-independence/2017/10/02/d41307b8-a6fa-11e7-9a98-07140d2eed02_story.html
2 million citizens in the Catalonia region voted overwhelmingly in a controversial, chaotic referendum to declare independence from Spain
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/02/catalonia-votes-in-illegal-independenc
e-referendum.html
The outbreaks of police violence at a handful of polling locations served to heighten tensions in the Catalan capital
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-spain-politics-catalonia-heartland/
from-batons-to-barbecues-catalan-vote-exposes-police-divisions-idUSKCN1C61KU
From batons to barbecues, Catalan vote exposes police divisions
http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/madrids-brutal-tactics-have
-increased-the-divide/article19786645.ece
Madrid’s brutal tactics have increased the divide
Trump is not the problem. He set himself against the Deep State's agenda. And the Deep State's been heading for WWIII for years.
As for you, you're just a Deep State useful idiot, furthering its agenda. So I hope you enjoy cesium in your coffee. You've earned it.
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Tuesday, October 3, 2017 1:19 AM
Thank you KIKI for handing KRAPO's ass to him. I was going to respond in detail about the anti-Russian beatings, burnings, and shellings, but see that I don't have to. KRAPO would have just argued about the facts anyway.
Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:Quote:https://www.icc-cpi.int/legalAidConsultations?name=pr997
Originally posted by kpo:
In UKRAINE we have:
1. No war crimes committed by the Ukrainian government, ever. But some hype, manufactured scare stories and propaganda
Ukraine accepts ICC jurisdiction over alleged crimes committed between 21 November 2013 and 22 February 2014
http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=20267
UN report on 2014-16 killings in Ukraine highlights “rampant impunity”Quote:The ICC and the UN
2. Spread by RussiaQuote:
3. Believed by idiots
People who look for facts, instead of sociopathic propagandist fucks.
And btw, the Kosovars weren't innocent of war crimes themselves. Yanno, just to be complete and factual, unlike you.
KRAPO: Interesting insight into how your brain works. When confronted with facts you don't like, you just cross out words and replace them until the whole thing fits your worldview
-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake
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Tuesday, October 3, 2017 3:20 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
In UKRAINE we have:
That's funny, I distinctly remember saying "in Crimea", not Ukraine. Tut tut, changing my words. So are you two accepting the fact that no war crimes of any kind was carried out by the Ukrainian government in Crimea? So much for your point by point comparison Sig...
Was there ANY oppression of the Crimeans by Kiev before the annexation by Russia? (There's been plenty of oppression since...)
Quote:
Ukraine accepts ICC jurisdiction over alleged crimes committed between 21 November 2013 and 22 February 2014
http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=20267
Ukraine applied for this jurisdiction - they're hopeful of getting verdicts against Russia over its illegal annexation of Crimea. If you're going to desperately google "Ukraine war crimes" at least read what you find
Quote:
UN report on 2014-16 killings in Ukraine highlights “rampant impunity”
By both sides. This is the UN report that says the conflict is “fuelled by the inflow of foreign fighters and weapons from Russia", yes?
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Thank you KIKI for handing KPO's ass to him.
Quote:
And btw, the Kosovars weren't innocent of war crimes themselves.
Never said they were. But there's no equivalence between them and the Serbian government.
-------------------------------------------------------
"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."
Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521
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