Syria and Ukraine, Catalan and Kurdistan: what do they have in common?
POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Saturday, November 16, 2024 22:06
VIEWED: 16012
PAGE 5 of 10
I think, KRAPO, that if you re-read your posts and my replies, the person whose ass got whooped was yours. Don't make me quote you, because you know I will.
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Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake
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Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Don't make me quote you, because you know I will.
Haha, go for it. While you're at it, why don't you explain why you in 3 years you still haven't voiced your support for Kosovo's independence from (Russia-allied) Serbia?
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"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."
Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521
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Quote:For the same reason that I haven't "voiced my support" of an independent Donbas, an independent Kurdistan, an independent Catalan, an independent Florence, and independent Moldova, or any number of "secession" movements.
While you're at it, why don't you explain why you in 3 years you still haven't voiced your support for Kosovo's independence from (Russia-allied) Serbia?
The ONLY multi-state entity which peacefully dissolved was the Soviet Union. That says good things about the Soviet Union, not so much about the Roman or British Empires, which brutally fought its colonies for control even as those empires were breaking down. The USA Empire? Its end is yet to be written, but so far seems intent on following the same bloody path as the British Empire.
All foreign powers use secessionist movements to expand their control. If you can't take over (invade, occupy, or subvert) another nation entirely, the next best thing is to break it into pieces, taking control of some of those pieces for yourself. The USA is EXCELLENT at that, fostering anti-government, partisan, religious, tribal, or racial divisions to break up existing nations; such as spending $5 billion to promote a "color revolution" in Ukraine (and other "color revolutions" elsewhere); sponsoring the creation of "South Sudan" (which has not improved the lives of the South Sudanese one whit) in the guise of "promoting democracy"; bombing the former Yugoslavia into pieces; and funding proxy armies of jihadists to break up Libya and Syria under the guise of being "pro-democracy".
So while there are secessionist movements that are completely organic, there are others where the USA has blown on those embers for years in the hopes that they'll catch fire.
Kosovo is too small to sustain itself economically, and has devolved into a more-or-less strongman/gangster-nation which exists on smuggling, people-trafficking, and other criminal enterprises.
SECESSION IS A COMPLEX SITUATION, KRAPO, not amenable to your baited question.
Are there other ways to ensure that the rights of those who wish to secede can be guaranteed, aside from secession? When a portion secedes, who owes whom what monies? What about the minorities within a seceding area, who DON'T want to secede, or whose rights might be trampled within a new political, religious, or economic framework?
If you can figure out those answers, then maybe you'll figure out which secessions deserve support, and which ones don't.
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Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake
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Quote:
For the same reason that I haven't "voiced my support" of an independent Donbas
Yes you have. From the Russia invades Ukraine thread:
Quote:
Let's assume that there is a portion of Ukraine where a clear majority wants separation. Let's assume it was a vote that even YOU would agree was free and fair. Would you allow it? -SIGNY
Only if Ukraine permitted it. -KPO
That's the difference between us, I guess. You really DO want to build societies on guns and bombs. Personally, I have no problems with separatists. I think the results of free and fair votes should be rewarded. - SIGNY
It seems your position on separatist movements has 'evolved' quite a bit.
Quote:
The ONLY multi-state entity which peacefully dissolved was the Soviet Union.
Czechoslovakia? Serbia and Montenegro? Just off the top of my head.
Quote:
All foreign powers use secessionist movements to expand their control... The USA is EXCELLENT at that
Funny all those secession movements on Russia's border - you don't suppose Russia is responsible for those at all?
Quote:
Kosovo is too small to sustain itself economically
Who decides that a nation is viable or not? You? Not the people themselves? This is just a way for you to dodge the question.
Quote:
SECESSION IS A COMPLEX SITUATION, KPO
Uh-huh, which is what I said. And your point with this thread is what then?
-------------------------------------------------------
"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."
Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521
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Quote:Wow, HOW MANY HOURS did it take you to find a couple of sentences out of all of the things I posted about secession?
For the same reason that I haven't "voiced my support" of an independent Donbas - SIGNY
Yes you have. From the Russia invades Ukraine thread:- KRAPO
I've thought about various aspects of secession - the effect of language groups, thinking about VARIOUS secessionist movements (Tamils etc) and even proposed a standard secession procedure (three votes over ten years), none of which you included.
But here's the reality: You're for the secession of Kosovo because the overwhelming majority was for it, but not for the secession of Crimea even though the overwhelming majority was for it.
It seems your position on separatist movements has 'wobbled' quite a bit.
Quote:Neither Czechoslovakia nor Serbia/Montenegro were multiple states, but in any case Czechoslovakia and Serbia/Montenegro were both part of the former Soviet Union, and so represent a continued peaceful breakup under the Soviet aegis. So you're making my point for me. Try coming up with a peaceful dissolution under British or American rule.
The ONLY multi-state entity which peacefully dissolved was the Soviet Union. - SIGNY
Czechoslovakia? Serbia and Montenegro? Just off the top of my head.- KRAPO
Quote:No, I don't. The problem is that currently pro-western governments have set themselves against their Russian-speaking, ethnically-Russian minority. AND YET, Russia doesn't support the creation of "breakaway" nations from these secessionist movements. Not even in the Donbas.
All foreign powers use secessionist movements to expand their control... The USA is EXCELLENT at that- SIGNY
Funny all those secession movements on Russia's border - you don't suppose Russia is responsible for those at all?-
Quote:What question is that?
Kosovo is too small to sustain itself economically - SIGNY
Who decides that a nation is viable or not? You? Not the people themselves? This is just a way for you to dodge the question. - KRAPO
In any case, I'm not suggesting that a breakaway state be denied independence on the basis of size. After all, look at Malta. I'm just pointing out that "independence" wasn't all it was cracked up to be for the Kosovars. Or the South Sudanese, either, for that matter.
Quote:
SECESSION IS A COMPLEX SITUATION, KPO- SIGNY
Uh-huh, which is what I said.- KRAPO
At least we agree in principle that it's complicated. Except for Kosovo, in which case it's really simple for you!
Quote:I guess you don't know what it means to DISCUSS anything? You have to turn everything into a fight? What the hell is wrong with you?
And your point with this thread is what then? - KRAPO
Quote:
"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."= KRAPO
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Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake
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Hey look! After a long hiatus, T and G are both back at almost the exact same time!
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Quote:Wow, HOW MANY HOURS did it take you to find a couple of sentences out of all of the things I posted about secession?
For the same reason that I haven't "voiced my support" of an independent Donbas - SIGNY
Yes you have. From the Russia invades Ukraine thread:- KRAPO
I've thought about various aspects of secession - the effect of language groups, thinking about VARIOUS secessionist movements (Tamils etc) and even proposed a standard secession procedure (three votes over ten years), none of which you included.
But here's the reality: You're for the secession of Kosovo because the overwhelming majority was for it, but not for the secession of Crimea even though the overwhelming majority was for it.
It seems your position on separatist movements has 'wobbled' quite a bit.
Quote:Neither Czechoslovakia nor Serbia/Montenegro were multiple states, but in any case Czechoslovakia and Serbia/Montenegro were both part of the former Soviet Union, and so represent a continued peaceful breakup under the Soviet aegis. So you're making my point for me. Try coming up with a peaceful dissolution under British or American rule.
The ONLY multi-state entity which peacefully dissolved was the Soviet Union. - SIGNY
Czechoslovakia? Serbia and Montenegro? Just off the top of my head.- KRAPO
Quote:No, I don't. The problem is that currently pro-western governments have set themselves against their Russian-speaking, ethnically-Russian minority. AND YET, Russia doesn't support the creation of "breakaway" nations from these secessionist movements. Not even in the Donbas.
All foreign powers use secessionist movements to expand their control... The USA is EXCELLENT at that- SIGNY
Funny all those secession movements on Russia's border - you don't suppose Russia is responsible for those at all?-
Quote:What question is that?
Kosovo is too small to sustain itself economically - SIGNY
Who decides that a nation is viable or not? You? Not the people themselves? This is just a way for you to dodge the question. - KRAPO
In any case, I'm not suggesting that a breakaway state be denied independence on the basis of size. After all, look at Malta. I'm just pointing out that "independence" wasn't all it was cracked up to be for the Kosovars. Or the South Sudanese, either, for that matter.
Quote:
SECESSION IS A COMPLEX SITUATION, KPO- SIGNY
Uh-huh, which is what I said.- KRAPO
At least we agree in principle that it's complicated. Except for Kosovo, in which case it's really simple for you!
Quote:I guess you don't know what it means to DISCUSS anything? You have to turn everything into a fight? What the hell is wrong with you?
And your point with this thread is what then? - KRAPO
Quote:
"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."= KRAPO
-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake
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Baghdad Designates Iraqi Kurdistan No-Fly Zone, Threatens To Down Any Aircraft Flying Over Region Without Permission
Starting today the Iraqi government has closed airspace in its northern Kurdistan region to international flights.
According to statement released by the Iraqi government, the no-fly zone is in effect over an area officially controlled by the Kurdistan Regional Government including Sulaymaniyah, Erbil, and Dohuk.
The Iraqi Air Force has a right to shoot down any aircraft that is flying over this region without permission.
Iraq threatened to implement a no-fly zone in the Iraqi Kurdistan airspace after the Independence referendum, which took place on September 25.
Baghdad considers the referendum unconstitutional, and had previously issued an order surrender the control over the airports in Erbil and Sulaymaniyah to Baghdad.
https://southfront.org/baghdad-designates-iraqi-kurdistan-no-fly-zone-
threatens-to-down-any-aircraft-flying-over-region-without-permission/
Spanish Government Orders Google To Delete App Used For Catalan Independence Vote
Catalonia’s High Court on Friday ordered Google to delete an application that it said Catalan separatists were using to spread information about a disputed independence vote this Sunday, Reuters reported. The court also ordered Google to block any future applications developed by the gmail address “Onvotar1oct@gmail.com”, according to a written ruling.
The app, which was available on Google Play until just before 7 p.m. on Friday, helps people to find their polling station via their address and shows the closest polling stations on Google Maps via GPS, the name of the town or keywords. It also allows users to share links to polling station locations, according to The Spain Report.
Google told The Spain Report that: "we remove content from our platforms when we receive a court order or when it violates our terms and conditions". The app no longer appears to be available from Spain.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-09-29/spanish-government-orders-goo
gle-delete-app-used-catalan-independence-vote
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Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake
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I note that Catalans don't speak Spanish, just as Basques don't speak Spanish, Kurds don't speak Arabic, people in Donbas and Crimea don't speak Ukrainian.
So ONE of the drivers of secessionist movements is language, which allows people to form a cohesive identity aside from national boundaries. Something to think about, when a nation (such as the USA) tolerates millions of people who don't speak the common language.
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Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake
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Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Wow, HOW MANY HOURS did it take you to find a couple of sentences
About 1-2 minutes.
I think that's about 5 times in the last couple of weeks that you've denied ever saying something and then I've found the thread and quoted you, proving you a liar.
Quote:
But here's the reality: You're for the secession of Kosovo because the overwhelming majority was for it,
I explained clearly why I support Kosovo's secession (and re-posted that explanation multiple times) so there's no need to put words in my mouth. Here it is for a 4th time:
KPO (2014):
"Independence/secessionist movements need to be considered on a case by case basis, balancing such principles as the right of self-determination, national sovereignty, and the region's unique history. No two situations are the same, and no two people will balance all these factors in the same way. It should be noted that different Western countries have different stances on accepting Kosovo's independence or not.
In the case of Kosovo ethnic Serbs see the land as belonging to their country, but the people living there don't feel they belong to Serbia at all. They are mostly ethnic Albanian, and for nearly 500 years they lived under Muslim, Ottoman control. But the key factor in support for Kosovan independence is the campaign of terror and ethnic cleansing that the Serb government carried out against the ethnic Albanian population in the 90's. The UN ruled that Serbia had carried out a "systematic campaign of terror, including murders, rapes, arsons and severe maltreatments" and cited several war crimes and crimes against humanity including massacres of unarmed men, women and children, and the forced displacement of tens of thousands.
For me personally, I think it's quite harsh to expect the Kosovans to live again under Serbian rule, given the way the Serbian government treated them in the 1990s."
Quote:
I've thought about various aspects of secession
You make a show of reasoned, democratic discussion, and then you side with the Russian government every time.
Quote:
It seems your position on separatist movements has 'wobbled' quite a bit.
No, it hasn't.
Quote:
but in any case Czechoslovakia and Serbia/Montenegro were both part of the former Soviet Union
Oh dear. I don't even know what your point is with this whole "peaceful breakup" of the Soviet Union tangent, but why don't you start by learning what states were in the Soviet Union?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republics_of_the_Soviet_Union
Quote:
so represent a continued peaceful breakup under the Soviet aegis. So you're making my point for me.
lolz
Quote:Quote:No, I don't.
Funny all those secession movements on Russia's border - you don't suppose Russia is responsible for those at all?
Quote:
AND YET, Russia doesn't support the creation of "breakaway" nations from these secessionist movements. Not even in the Donbas.
God bless Russia and its complete commitment to non-interference in the affairs of other states.
Quote:
At least we agree in principle that it's complicated. Except for Kosovo, in which case it's really simple for you!
Only when you put words in my mouth.
Quote:
I guess you don't know what it means to DISCUSS anything?
lolz
-------------------------------------------------------
"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."
Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521
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