Who's your Favorite Buffyverse Villain?

POSTED BY: bobknaptor
UPDATED: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 20:31
VIEWED: 11126
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MOJOECA

Sunday, July 21, 2002 3:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Pandora:

Actually, I'm in complete agreement with you. I like Buffy as a character because she's dynamic and layered and very very real- however, she's not a person I'd be likely to ever hang out with (though she is kinda funny). I'm a very big fan of her, and I like to watch her, but as far as characters I'd hang out with, I'd be far more likely to hang out with Willow, or Tara, or Xander, or even (especially?) Spike (if he wouldn't try to kill me) because they're not quite so... well, normal.

Joss mentioned this in his WTTH commentary. He was telling the network, who objected to Willow's nerdiness, that she would be their most popular character, much moreso than Buffy. She, Buffy, has a certain inaccessiblity, because "she's such a hero." She is a very closed off person and, frankly a little self-centered -- though saving people's lives maybe gives her right to be.

--- Joe

PANDORA

Sunday, July 21, 2002 3:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mojoeca:

Joss mentioned this in his WTTH commentary. He was telling the network, who objected to Willow's nerdiness, that she would be their most popular character, much moreso than Buffy. She, Buffy, has a certain inaccessiblity, because "she's such a hero." She is a very closed off person and, frankly a little self-centered -- though saving people's lives maybe gives her right to be.

--- Joe

He's a smart cookie, that Whedon. In a genre patronized by nerds, geeks, freaks, and weirdoes, while a heroine such as Buffy will entertain, a character like Willow will attach. That Willow is a sidekick is even more appealing, because a lot of the disenfranchised oddballs of the world often feel like sidekicks in their own life stories.

Whereas Willow is the lovable geek, Xander's the lovable dork. Nothing exceptional, but exceptionally accessible. Also, they're not just Buffyfoils. They're as well developed as she, which just makes us love them more.

Though I'd like to see a little more of VampWillow someday...

someday...

Pandora
watch the hands, indeed...

"Mrs. Krabappel and Principal Skinner were in the closet making babies and I saw one of the babies
and the baby looked at me." -Ralph Wiggum

SHUGGIE

Sunday, July 21, 2002 9:31 PM

The Mayor - perfect combination of funny and creepy.

Shug

J

Monday, July 22, 2002 7:43 AM

I've answered this question a lot, but here goes. I agree about the Mayor. I always put Angel, Spike, Faith, etc. in a separate category of good-bads or bad-goods - I can't evaluate them in the same terms as the Master, the Mayor, Glory, etc.

As many times as I've tackled it, I've never been able to articulate very well why I like the Mayor so much. For one, I either believe that his affection for Faith was genuine - and I know hers for him was - or it was the most diabolical case of using someone I've ever seen. But certain expressions, sayings, and actions convince me that he did. And this ties in with his whole shtick: he's like the perfect 50s TV dad - Father Knows Best - who's utterly sick, demented, twisted. I can untangle how much of that is irony and how much of that is straight commentary, but it's fascinating. And, not least, I forget the actor's name, but he played the part brilliantly. The way he plays a character who's hilarious and menacing; kind and vicious; goofy and dangerous - as one thing and not some kind of split personality, where he might weight one side or the other too heavily... just great writing and acting.

As far as Faith, I think she was serving a purpose from the start - she was a contrast for Buffy and someone to shine lights from different angles. She was used to give a better idea of Slayer lore and Watcher activities and so on. As vague as those things are, she provided a means to explore them more than they had been. And then it naturally led into her leading Buffy down a dangerous path, and further on to her outright antagonism and alliance with the Mayor. A lot of people mark s2 as the high point and it was certainly amazing but, despite cheapening the point - so to speak - by bringing Angel back, I thought s3, with the Faith/Mayor dynamics, was the best of all. So, at the start, I didn't know how the storyline was going to play out, but I felt it playing out. I wasn't sure what to make of her at first, but I liked her IN the show - I felt she fit the paradigm well. And then I just came to be fascinated with her in specific character terms as well. (Incidentally, many dislike Kendra's fate, but I thought that was a nice bit of writing in terms of introducing the weirdness of two Slayers in a relatively minor way - so that Faith could carry a major storyline without the "there can be only - two?" thing being such a stumbling block.

But then, I'm weird - I sort of liked Willow and I liked Xander a bit more, but my interest and appreciation was for Buffy. And it's gotten to where I don't really "like" any of them, but I put a lot of that down to the specifics of bad writing in s6, and I still retain more appreciation of Buffy-that-was than the others. This is the villain thread, so I won't drift too far there. Explaining why I would defend Buffy (of s1-5) - or why I'm not such a huge fan of Willow and Xander - is almost as hard as explaining the Mayor.

Back to the switch-hitters. It's a tough call with that - Faith was amazing but ultimately (or ultimately-thus-far) underused character, and I have to allow that I'm not evaluating her entirely with my brain. So I'd have to say Spike was my favorite switcher, though he also got messed up this season. And this ties into why I'm not listing anybody from Angel - I agree with whoever said the blind assassin was the coolest. I watched Angel from the debut to about 18 eps into last season and took a break. I'll give it a brief try next season. I don't see good villains there and Angel is actually more annoying to me with his guilty broodiness than with his happy goofiness. I like the character just fine, but no way is he near the top. As Angelus he was fine but almost too one-dimensional, and I always wanted Spike to kick his ass. Spike's probably THE most complicated character on the show, which explains why he's so popular (either that or people think he's really hot, I dunno) and why he's so easy for writers to screw up. It's like the writing team began having problems handling his complexity and in hi

ZICSOFT

Monday, July 22, 2002 2:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mojoeca:
Joss mentioned this in his WTTH commentary. He was telling the network, who objected to Willow's nerdiness, that she would be their most popular character, much moreso than Buffy.

Sigh. As I've said before, every network, every studio has somebody whose job it is to say, "I love what you're doing, but couldn't we make the characters a bit more sympathetic?" Or otherwise point out all the risks the show is taking, The entertainment industry is dominated by cowards.

In point of fact, JW didn't entirely win the battle over Willow. In the first pilot, Willow was played by a different actress -- more stereotypically Jewish, and much, much less sleekly sexy.

I shouldn't carp, though. AH gets almost the same effect just through good acting. But I do find it amusing that SMG, who is Jewish, plays the blonde white-bread middle-American. While Willow Rosenberg is played by an actress who is very conspicuously of Irish heritage. But hey, you have an "ethnic" actress playing an "ethnic" role, so it works, right?

ZICSOFT

Monday, July 22, 2002 2:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Shuggie:
The Mayor - perfect combination of funny and creepy.

Shug

Very, very true. If I had to rank the "arc" bad guys, I'd rate Mayor Wilkins #2, right after Glory.

Most people don't consider Glory that interesting -- and as a character, I suppose she's not. But the irony and sly wit of the role is great fun.

JW and company love to spring weird little suprises. One of the best of these is the moment when THE BEAST finally catches up with the monk. The warehouse door thuds, thuds, thuds, then falls, as the monk looks on in terror -- to behold a pretty woman in a cocktail dress! Delicious.

SHUGGIE

Monday, July 22, 2002 4:41 PM

I'd quibble with that interpretation slightly.

I, of course, don't know what conversations the network and Joss had over the casting of Riff Regan (pilot Willow). I have seen her work and it's well - pretty mediocre.

She hasn't got Aly's charm and charisma and she hasn't got the acting ability either. She plays Willow as the slightly sad, slightly pathetic nerd. You're really left wondering whether Buffy or Xander would hang with her.

One of the main characteristics of Willow in the High School years is that she's pretty cool but you've got to see past the nerd to realize that. Buffy, Xander and Oz definitely do. Regan's Willow didn't have that - she was all nerd.

Plus she's kinda dumpy. I know that's harsh but - "This is TV get over it" - as Joss said about casting Mr Brendon as a geek. I actually think you can get away with dumpy if you've got personality. Personality, as the man said, goes a long way.

I'm sure Riff Regan is a wonderful person with oodles of personality. Unfortunately it didn't come over on the screen that day.

Shug

BOBKNAPTOR

Monday, July 22, 2002 6:40 PM

I think the beauty of Faith was that they were able to explore the darker side of all the "Slayer Power" without corrupting Buffy in anyone's eyes. They've never really had a "Buffy goes evil" storyline. She did breaking and entering into the weapons shop with Faith, but really, I think that's the most evil she's ever been.

I think up until Faith, a lot of people were saying "come on, she has all this power, and yet she is still kind of a wimp about using it!" So Faith came in, and she showed what it meant to really exploit the gifts of the slayer. At first you're thinking "Woo Hoo! Finally a slayer with guts!" Then you start to see how dark it is, and how it is such a short trip from "tough as nails vampire slayer" to "evil henchman". And all this without the inconvenience of people suddenly not trusting Buffy anymore.

______________
She's not playing with a full deck. She has hardly any deck at all. She has a 3.

ZICSOFT

Monday, July 22, 2002 7:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bobknaptor:
I think the beauty of Faith was that they were able to explore the darker side of all the "Slayer Power" without corrupting Buffy in anyone's eyes.

Good point. But then, aren't all the Buffy villains like that? They're not the you-gotta-hate-em bad guys like on other action shows. They're really not that different from the good guys. Which is not unlike real life.

And once again we see how JW uses fantasy as an excuse to be real!

NOVAGRASS

Monday, July 22, 2002 8:10 PM

Quote:

Actually, I'm in complete agreement with you. I like Buffy as a character because she's dynamic and layered and very very real- however, she's not a person I'd be likely to ever hang out with (though she is kinda funny). I'm a very big fan of her, and I like to watch her, but as far as characters I'd hang out with, I'd be far more likely to hang out with Willow, or Tara, or Xander, or even (especially?) Spike (if he wouldn't try to kill me) because they're not quite so... well, normal.

You say that Buffy is not a person with whom you'd ever be likely to hang out, but would you ever expect a person like Willow or Xander to hang out with her? I certainly wouldn't. The fact that she associates herself with these characters, and even persues a relationship with them, contradicts a lot of my troubles with Buffy's "type" of person (i.e. white-bred middle American valley girl). This may be a matter of her circumastances; a matter of her not being a normal girl, just like Willow and Xander are not "normal" people.

However, I am in a agreement with you. Buffy is probably not a person I would ever expect to enjoy, though looking back on previous experiences, some of my best relationships have been with people I would not have expected to like.

--Dylan Palmer, aka NoVaGrAsS--

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