More love for our troops from the top...

POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 02:51
VIEWED: 3565
PAGE 1 of 1

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, November 27, 2007 5:34 PM

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/112607A.shtml

Read this and then tell me how you support the troops....

Disgusted Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, November 27, 2007 6:06 PM

No comment from any about how our government supports our troops?

Quote:
"A bill in the mail is not the kind of present our soldiers deserve in this holiday season," Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y. said. "Our veterans are not being treated with the dignity, respect and thanks that they deserve. It's just a disgrace."

Oh- that's why...

CAUSE THEY DON'T!!!!

Chrisisall

HERO

Tuesday, November 27, 2007 6:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

Read this and then tell me how you support the troops....

Is this happening? Yes. Is it contrary to policy? Yes. The military has a specific policy against this type of thing. That means they saw this as a problem and implemented a policy to address it. That means that while it is likely still a problem...its now an administrative problem rather then a policy failure. This means that while its bad...its much easier to fix working through existing channels.

My understanding is that the problem comes from certain injuries being classified in such a way as to not be automatically recognizable as battlefield injury. The example I heard about involved a wounded soldier evacuated to an aid hospital to be stabilized before being shipped out to Germany for further treatment. Thus the injury was processed through Germany rather then through Iraq and thus was not deemed battlefield related by the computer. This triggered the billing process for failure to complete the tour. Like anything else in the military there is a form you can fill out to get your file reviewed.

H

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, November 27, 2007 6:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
This triggered the billing process for failure to complete the tour.

That doesn't make up for the fact that peeps that SERVED THEIR COUNTRY are getting screwed. But then our government has a long history of doing that, so vets shouldn't be surprised, right? I mean, they must have known what they were getting into, eh? Better wars/better computers/better screwing.

That was a valiant attempt at defending the scumbags, Hero, probably the best I'll see, but it was just an attempt.

Support the troops, not the mercs Chrisisall

RUE

Tuesday, November 27, 2007 6:45 PM

There is something else going on. People who completed their service and left the military as many as 7 YEARS ago - and having submitted their separation documents at the time and been honorably discharged - are being arrested and dragged to the brig as 'AWOL'. THEN after serving time for being 'AWOL' are being discharged from the military (again) with a less than honorable discharge. It keeps the US from having to pay benefits.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, November 27, 2007 6:52 PM

Like Mal, I suddenly want to join up....

not. Chrisisall

GEEZER

Tuesday, November 27, 2007 7:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
That doesn't make up for the fact that peeps that SERVED THEIR COUNTRY are getting screwed.

Peeps that SERVED THEIR COUNTRY are the victims of a process problem, just like when UPS's new routing program shows that the address I've lived at for the past 17 years doesn't exist and my packages aren't delivered. It's a mistake on someone's part. Although you've probably never made a mistake, I'm sure you've heard of them. People are working to fix it. Senator Schumer is doing what he does as well; making everything look like an evil plan.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, November 27, 2007 7:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Senator Schumer is doing what he does as well; making everything look like an evil plan.

It IS an evil plan, you dolt! Just like when insurance companies initially deny most claims, or when the bank holds back posting a charge on your debit card until the last second in case you get close to zero- every little bit of money bilked out of the public (which INCLUDES vets) is important! Are you so out of the loop here, Geeze?

Sheeshing Chrisisall

RUE

Tuesday, November 27, 2007 7:33 PM

If these were just process problems you'd expect it to go both ways. People getting benefits or more benefits to which they aren't entitled, people getting honorable discharges when they should be dishonorable, people getting more than their sign-up bonus ... but it seems to all go one way.

But - if you really think it's just a random error - I have a bridge to sell you ...

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, November 27, 2007 8:52 PM

Oh please, I know I should feel sympathy for them, but I ... just.... can't.

Look, since 1865 the Army has failed to keep any promise to them, and made a policy of lying to them, getting them into wars and then abandoning them like a used kleenex, viewing them with approximately the same value once they're of no further use.

I mean, look at two of "History's Greatest" generals, Patton and McArthur, both of whom "made their bones" whooping the ass of AMERICANS, and former troops at that, who wanted a fair shake after being used up and cast aside.

If by NOW any dimwit is stupid enough to believe one fucking word of what the army tells em when they enlist, contract or not... I just have a big problem feeling sympathy for them, you sign a contract with the devil, expect to get a little burnt, you know ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, November 27, 2007 9:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
you sign a contract with the devil, expect to get a little burnt, you know ?

Like the contract we have with our government in general- as in like, they're supposed to work for us???

YeahrightChrisisall

GEEZER

Tuesday, November 27, 2007 10:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
If these were just process problems you'd expect it to go both ways. People getting benefits or more benefits to which they aren't entitled, people getting honorable discharges when they should be dishonorable, people getting more than their sign-up bonus ... but it seems to all go one way.

Having spent more years than I care to remember testing software, I can tell you that a single type of problem, repeating multiple times, based on one particular set of circumstances, is exactly what you'd expect from a system design or program error. I'd bet that there is an indicator or code, that is set due to a particular type of injury-related removal from active duty, which isn't being acted on properly in a DOD computer system somewhere. Probably left out of either the documentation the programmer used to create the code, or just left out when the code was written.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, November 27, 2007 10:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

Having spent more years than I care to remember testing software, I can tell you that a single type of problem, repeating multiple times, based on one particular set of circumstances, is exactly what you'd expect from a system design or program error. I'd bet that there is an indicator or code, that is set due to a particular type of injury-related removal from active duty, which isn't being acted on properly in a DOD computer system somewhere. Probably left out of either the documentation the programmer used to create the code, or just left out when the code was written.

Bollocks. It's the chronoton particles messing with the ethical sub-routines.

Can't fool Chrisisall

AURAPTOR

Wednesday, November 28, 2007 2:52 AM

This problem is being fixed and the soldiers are getting their $$.

It's a Pentagon issue, not an administration issue.

Quote:

Department of Defense told to stop demanding wounded soldiers return bonuses

Rep. Thomas M. Reynolds, R-Amherst, has called on the Department of Defense to stop requiring wounded soldiers returning from Iraq and Afghanistan to repay enlistment bonuses because their injuries prohibited them from fulfilling their commitment

.

"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, November 28, 2007 3:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
This problem is being fixed and the soldiers are getting their $$.

It's a Pentagon issue, not an administration issue.

Oh good, then all is well.

He said sarcastically Chrisisall

RUE

Wednesday, November 28, 2007 5:01 PM

"I can tell you that a single type of problem, repeating multiple times, based on one particular set of circumstances, is exactly what you'd expect from a system design or program error."

And then ... you have people spending months, years in the brig for being AWOL after they were honorably discharged. You see, if it's JUST a computer or system error, when people get involved they should be able to straighten it out. But they don't. B/c there's no impetus b/c frankly, it saves money and makes it look like there are more people in the military. So the failure goes beyond a system error. It's still a policy issue.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, November 28, 2007 5:08 PM

Rue, that's too logical...give Geeze & AU some reasoning that involves fairies and gremlins; they'll respond better to that.

Not sayin' they don't see reality or nuthin'...Chrisisall

AURAPTOR

Wednesday, November 28, 2007 11:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"And then ... you have people spending months, years in the brig for being AWOL after they were honorably discharged.

Sounds more like the Jesse McBeth stories we know and love from the folks at MediaMatters.

"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

RUE

Thursday, November 29, 2007 12:42 AM

Who's Jesse McBeth ?? And what is Media Matters ?? I could look it up, I'm just too lazy right now.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

JONGSSTRAW

Thursday, November 29, 2007 1:09 AM

Media Matters is a ultra far-left lunatic hate site that tells NOTHING but vile, nit-picked, and re-constructed lies...just my opinion of course.

RUE

Thursday, November 29, 2007 1:10 AM

Is it a TV show ? Radio station ? Website ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

JONGSSTRAW

Thursday, November 29, 2007 1:14 AM

A website that regularly dispatches their fudged statistical lies concerning tv news, entertainment, etc. Often the mainstream media ( mainly NBC & PBS) run with those stories as fact. Most disgusting and absurd sh*t I've ever seen.

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, November 29, 2007 1:16 AM

It's the right wing bogeyman they've been told by their ultra far-right lunatic radio to hate upon this week.

I've never heard of it neither, other than that.

-F

RUE

Thursday, November 29, 2007 1:16 AM

Well, no the story I have didn't come from media matters or whatever the guy's name was. (Too lazy to scroll back up and get it. It's the end of the day ...)

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, November 29, 2007 1:18 AM

Sounds a lot like Sinclair or Faux News to me.

So what's the difference again ?

Oh.. right right, which SIDE their on.
*sneer*

And might I add, Rap, given how many of the Faery Tales you yourself have posted from such sources yourself without question or investigation, it's not like you've much room to lay those accusations on anyone else.

-F

RUE

Thursday, November 29, 2007 1:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

I've never heard of it neither, other than that.
-F

Well at least I don't feel so bad.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

ANTHONYT

Thursday, November 29, 2007 1:33 AM

Hello,

I feel strongly that the problem outlined here is a systems issue. Where I work, there have been systems issues that, for instance, cause an application to be automatically rejected by the computer before a processor ever gets his hands on it.

This issue cost the company money, and it was quickly addressed.

Unfortunately, the issue being described about our veterans is not costing the government money. Fixing the problem, on the other hand, requires both time and money.

This leads me to believe that we are looking at something that is no more insidious than the nature of the beast. People hop to fix things that are in their own best interests, and are slow to fix things that are a bother. Thank God we have elections coming up and the politicians are trying to score points. Otherwise this problem might linger in limbo, since no one important would have the motivated self-interest needed to solve it.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

AURAPTOR

Thursday, November 29, 2007 1:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Who's Jesse McBeth ?? And what is Media Matters ?? I could look it up, I'm just too lazy right now.

McBeth was a washed out soldier who , while never making it past basic training, none the less became the toast of the far Left /anti-war loons when he made up stories about how he had seen US soldiers doing all sorts of nasty things in Iraq. Only problem was, he was never IN Iraq. Typical of the Left.

Oh, and Media Matters is a pseudo internet watch group claiming to be unbiased, but the brainchild of one Hillary Clinton.

"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

RUE

Thursday, November 29, 2007 2:08 AM

A couple of experiences with a mistaken bureaucracy:

Many years ago as a student I briefly had a car. Unfortunately said car died in a university parking that didn't allow overnight parking. And b/c it was winter as the days went on it got plowed in and got harder and harder to get out. So it accumulated 6 tickets at $6 each. I paid the tickets and thought that was the end of it.
About a year later the city started dunning me for 5 tickets. Fortunately I had the cancelled checks (in the days when you still got them from the bank) so I sent in copies and they said -oops, never mind. This happened a half-dozen times on and off for the next year or so, and then it stopped so I assumed they had fixed their computer system. A couple of years later I happened to look out the apartment window and see a sheriff park his car on the street. I watched him get out of his car and was idly wondering where he was going, watched him walk down the sidewalk to my particular building in the complex, go to the particular door - all the while I'm thinking - hmmm - that's interesting - and even after he knocked on the door I was thinking he was going to ask me which apartment was number 4 (mine was 3). I was shocked when he had a warrant for me. ME ! Fortunately I STILL had the cancelled checks. So when I showed them to him, rather than be a jackass and haul me off anyway - he made the HUMAN deduction that the system had screwed up and went away.

Another time I was due tuition from my scholarship. I kept sending in my tuition bills, sending in my schedule of classes, sending in my grades - and they kept telling me they weren't going to pay the tuition b/c according to their records I wasn't in school. Now at the time money was VERY tight, I had to work a lot of extra hours at minimum wage to cover the tuition so I could pay and be able to register for my classes the next semester. (If you didn't know, it's quite demanding working two or more jobs and going to school full time.) After this BS went on for a few years I went to the Student Union where they had free legal services- and was advised to send a registered letter demanding my money and saying I had obtained legal counsel. Wouldn't you know it, the money showed up three weeks later.

Somewhere in an effed up system there is a PERSON who sees and acts on the information. And that person can either use a little judgment or can simply be an effed up part of an effed up machine. If the policy is to keep people from using their judgment, from addressing errors of the system, then you'll have cases like what we see here. It becomes literally a Federal case to fix the problem.

It depends on their policies. I still maintain it's a policy issue.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

RUE

Thursday, November 29, 2007 2:16 AM

Did some looking and found this:

"Established in May 2004, Media Matters identifies itself as “a Web-based, not-for-profit, 501(c)(3) progressive research and information center dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media”—particularly information “that forwards the conservative agenda.” The organization was founded by the conservative-turned-leftist journalist David Brock, who says he created Media Matters “to combat” what he characterizes as the largely successful effort of “the right wing in this country” to “mov[e] the media itself to the right” and to “mov[e] American politics to the right.”"

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

GEEZER

Friday, November 30, 2007 10:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
And then ... you have people spending months, years in the brig for being AWOL after they were honorably discharged.

Googled a bit, and haven't been able to find anything to back up this claim. Got a cite?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

SIGNYM

Saturday, December 1, 2007 12:42 AM

There's more going on than that. I'll try to find it, but a number of soldiers wtih traumatic brain injury (and even some with missing limbs) have been dx with "personality disorder" so that their benefits are reduced.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

SIGNYM

Saturday, December 1, 2007 12:44 AM

Ah, here it is...

Quote:
Eventually the rocket shrapnel was removed from Town's neck and his ears stopped leaking blood. But his hearing never really recovered, and in many ways, neither has his life. A soldier honored twelve times during his seven years in uniform, Town has spent the last three struggling with deafness, memory failure and depression. By September 2006 he and the Army agreed he was no longer combat-readyBut instead of sending Town to a medical board and discharging him because of his injuries, doctors at Fort Carson, Colorado, did something strange: They claimed Town's wounds were actually caused by a "personality disorder." Town was then booted from the Army and told that under a personality disorder discharge, he would never receive disability or medical benefits.

Town is not alone. A six-month investigation has uncovered multiple cases in which soldiers wounded in Iraq are suspiciously diagnosed as having a personality disorder, then prevented from collecting benefits. The conditions of their discharge have infuriated many in the military community, including the injured soldiers and their families, veterans' rights groups, even military officials required to process these dismissals.

They say the military is purposely misdiagnosing soldiers like Town and that it's doing so for one reason: to cheat them out of a lifetime of disability and medical benefits, thereby saving billions in expenses.

www.thenation.com/doc/20070409/kors

Some of the stories in this article are pretty horrific.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

GEEZER

Saturday, December 1, 2007 1:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Ah, here it is... Some of the stories in this article are pretty horrific.

Yes they are. Any independent confirmation of Mr Kors' assumptions in his article, or just those anonymous sources 'within the military'? I had a buddy with mental problems who thought the police in New Orleans were after him. He'd never been to New Orleans, and no one was after him.

Still looking for any support for the 'honorably discharged troopse arrested for AWOL' story as well.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

SIGNYM

Saturday, December 1, 2007 1:48 AM

Did you read the article?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

GEEZER

Saturday, December 1, 2007 2:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Did you read the article?

Yep. Couple of times. And did a bit more study on the 'net.

Just a few red herrings:

1) "Defense Department records show that across the entire armed forces, more than 22,500 soldiers have been dismissed due to personality disorder in the last six years."

Most Chapter 5-13 discharges occur in Basic or AIT, when new troops can't handle the military life due to psychological issues. Several of the folk in my training units back during the Vietnam war were discharged under 5-13. If there were significant statistics on combat veterans discharged under 5-13, you'd expect Mr. Kors to show them.

2) The Defense Department doesn't pay disability benefits, the VA does. DoD doesn't save any money by issuing 5-13 discharges.

3) If the 'anonymous sources' were really willing to blow the whistle on this, you'd think they'd go to a Congressman or to the mainstream media.

4) "Wexler did not reply to repeated requests seeking comment on Town's diagnosis." Yep. Like most of the government, he's prohibited by law from discussing any individual's private information. I consider this a good thing, overall.

5) And you got disagreement between psychologists. Wow.

How about some hard facts, or statistics, or any other journalist or researcher coming up with similar information? The only mentions I see on the web are pretty much just repeats of Mr. Kors' article.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

SIGNYM

Saturday, December 1, 2007 2:58 AM

Well Geezer you either didn't look very hard, or you looked REALLY hard for material to support your "do nothing" views because I found this third citation down when I Googled 5-13+discharge+personality

Quote:
Further investigation by The Nation has uncovered more than a dozen cases like Town's from bases across the country. ... All were deemed physically and psychologically fit in a second screening as well, before being deployed to Iraq, and served honorably there in combat.

... Maj. Gen. Gale Pollock, acting surgeon general of the Army, was briefed on the problems with the Army's personality disorder discharges.... The surgeon general released a series of memos filled with fabrications. Pollock then informed wounded soldiers that their cases had been thoroughly reviewed by an independent panel of health experts when in fact no such review was conducted.

... The story of Pollock, Knorr and the "thoughtful and thorough" five-month review had been picked up by news talk programs... To stem the tide, officials at Fort Carson did something odd: They released a new memo stating that fifty-six soldiers discharged from Fort Carson with personality disorder actually had PTSD.

www.vawatchdog.org/07/nf07/nfSEP07/nf092907-5.htm

So by the Army's own admission, they had misdiagnosed 56 soldiers at Fort Carson alone. Not gonna waste any more of my evening on you.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

GEEZER

Saturday, December 1, 2007 2:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Well Geezer you either didn't look very hard, or you looked REALLY hard for material to support your "do nothing" views because I found this third citation down when I Googled 5-13+discharge+personality

Yep. You found independent confirmation of an article by Joshua Kors in...another article by Joshua Kors.

Quote:
So by the Army's own admission, they had misdiagnosed 56 soldiers at Fort Carson alone.

Fort Carson does seem to have a problem, centered in their command staff. NPR reported on this, and the Army should take steps to correct this. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10470048

However, one base is not the entire military, and 56, while too many, is not 22,500. To inflate this into yet another government-wide secret conspiracy is, well, paranoid.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

AURAPTOR

Saturday, December 1, 2007 2:52 PM

Quote:
The organization was founded by the conservative-turned-leftist journalist David Brock, who says he created Media Matters “to combat” what he characterizes as the largely successful effort of “the right wing in this country” to “mov[e] the media itself to the right” and to “mov[e] American politics to the right.”"

Exactly what a Left winger would be expected to say, to paint a distorted picture of the media landscape. The Right has been largely successful, true enough, with FOX News and talk radio , both making inroads to what has always been held as the Left's domain. But no longer. The Left's days of total control of the media are threatened, and this is simply a way to counter the rising tide.

Good luck to that.

Quote:
We are certainly better prepared and more focused on, you know, taking our arguments and making them effective and disseminating them widely and really putting together a network in the blogosphere, and a lot of the new progressive infrastructure, institutions that I helped to start and support, like Media Matters and Center for American Progress

- Hillary Clinton

http://hotair.com/archives/2007/10/02/audio-hillary-clinton-brags-abou
t-starting-media-matters/

"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

SIGNYM

Saturday, December 1, 2007 4:23 PM

Quote:
Yep. You found independent confirmation of an article by Joshua Kors in...another article by Joshua Kors.

If the facts turn out to be true (which so far they have) then Kors should be commended for astute investigation, not marginalized for (gasp!) having written two articles on the same topic. Try focusing on the issues, not the people involved. You'll get a lot farther.

Quote:
However, one base is not the entire military, and 56, while too many, is not 22,500. To inflate this into yet another government-wide secret conspiracy is, well, paranoid

I never said it was a government-wide conspiracy. But since the issue seems to go as high as Acting Surgeon General Pollock I think a complete investigation should be done so that if there ARE any wide-ranging problems they can be fixed. What say you?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

GEEZER

Saturday, December 1, 2007 5:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I never said it was a government-wide conspiracy.

No. Just the article you quote.

"They say the military is purposely misdiagnosing soldiers like Town and that it's doing so for one reason: to cheat them out of a lifetime of disability and medical benefits, thereby saving billions in expenses."

"Keep the Shiny side up"

SIGNYM

Saturday, December 1, 2007 5:51 PM

Well, do you think it should be investigated? (By someone outside of the military, perhaps with the power to subpoena?)

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

CHRISISALL

Saturday, December 1, 2007 6:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I never said it was a government-wide conspiracy.

No. Just the article you quote.

"They say the military is purposely misdiagnosing soldiers like Town and that it's doing so for one reason: to cheat them out of a lifetime of disability and medical benefits, thereby saving billions in expenses."

Like Rue said- I don't hear about any misdiagnoses leading to a ridiculous EXCESS in many vet's benefits...
you bias betrays you, Geezer.

You miss the obvious Chrisisall

GEEZER

Saturday, December 1, 2007 6:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Well, do you think it should be investigated? (By someone outside of the military, perhaps with the power to subpoena?)

Which 'it'?
Your conspiracy? No.
Bad administration at Fort Carson? Yep.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

SIGNYM

Saturday, December 1, 2007 6:34 PM

Bad administration under Acting Surgeon General Pollock, who apparently falsified the review process. Yep.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

GEEZER

Saturday, December 1, 2007 6:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Like Rue said- I don't hear about any misdiagnoses leading to a ridiculous EXCESS in many vet's benefits...
you bias betrays you, Geezer.

So who's gonna go to the press and complain about getting too much money?

Let's review.

Your 'wounded vets robbed of disability' conspiracy turned out to be most likely a programming error.

Rue's 'honorably discharged vets being arrested for AWOL' conspiracy turned out to have nothing behind it at all.

SignyM's 'Military-wide mis-diagnosis to save money' conspiracy has so far been identified as 56 folk at one military base. Hardly a 'riciculous' number.

Yep. I guess my bias against wild-ass conspiracy theories is showing indeed.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

SIGNYM

Saturday, December 1, 2007 7:11 PM

Quote:
SignyM's 'Military-wide mis-diagnosis to save money' conspiracy has so far been identified as 56 folk at one military base. Hardly a 'riciculous' number.

First of all, it's not "my" conspiracy. Let's call it "possible problems" However, ASG Pollock did not properly investigate what appeared to be systematic errors at one military base, and similar errors at other bases. Because SHE didn't investigate, but rather fabricated an "independent review process" to cover up the problems, it leaves open the question as to how widespread the problem really is. And since SHE didn't investigate it- clearly her purview and responsibility- then the military's internal corrective process definitely broke down and the investigation now belongs someplace else. Don't forget that the 56 misdx is only what Fort Carson admitted to under pressure. Like cops covering up for other cops, they may be burying a larger problem. And nobody else is going to voluntarily come forward and admit wrongdoing or errors at this point, if indeed they occurred. (Except the anonymous sources who've already come foreward.)

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

GEEZER

Saturday, December 1, 2007 8:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
First of all, it's not "my" conspiracy.

Okay. The Conspiracy SignyM posted links to and continues to defend.

Quote:
However, ASG Pollock did not properly investigate...

But no. Mr. Kors alleges that ASG Pollock did not investigate. If this came up as a fact during the formal investigation we both agree needs to occur at Ft. Carson, then I'd say go with it. Otherwise, I'd still want to see other input. The NPR series I cited, for example, didn't mention ASG Pollock or anyone outside Ft. Carson at all.

BTW, the GAO is already investigating the treatment of soldiers' mental health problems.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=9691183

Check out the Senators' letter link on this page and see if their request meets your approval.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

SIGNYM

Saturday, December 1, 2007 9:03 PM

Geezer- It doesn't necessarily HAVE to be a conspiracy. As usual, you're putting words in my mouth. It COULD be f*ckup and a coverup. It could be nothing at all. I wish you'd stop constructing strawman arguments, but it seems so ingrained in your psyche maybe you just can't help yourself.

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Always look upstream.

GEEZER

Saturday, December 1, 2007 9:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Geezer- It doesn't necessarily HAVE to be a conspiracy. As usual, you're putting words in my mouth. It COULD be f*ckup and a coverup. It could be nothing at all. I wish you'd stop constructing strawman arguments, but it seems so ingrained in your psyche maybe you just can't help yourself.

Then perhaps you should have posted and cited an article which wasn't mainly an accusation of a conspiracy and coverup designed to cheat soldiers of their benefits to save the government money. Or at least commented on the parts you agreed with, rather than letting it all stand as meeting your approval.

Does the idea of a GAO audit satisfy your need for additional investigation?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

CHRISISALL

Sunday, December 2, 2007 3:30 AM

Geezer, with ALL the f***ups going on regarding the vets coming home from Iraq, you wanna tell me Uncle Sam cares at all? ....so, no conspiracy- I can go with that- but you have to see me a 'they don't give a s**t' in return, K?

Chrisisall

SIGNYM

Sunday, December 2, 2007 3:50 AM

Quote:
Then perhaps you should have posted and cited an article which wasn't mainly an accusation of a conspiracy

It was one I had seen earlier, so I looked it up. Sheesh!

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Always look upstream.

RUE

Sunday, December 2, 2007 6:12 AM

Rap

"Exactly what a Left winger would be expected to say, to paint a distorted picture of the media landscape."

If you had looked it up (using searchable quotes) you would have seen that I quoted an article from a website that detests the left and the organization, and spent many many words trying to make a connection between Hillary Clinton and Media Matters. And couldn't.

So, to get back to the original point, no, none of this comes from 'Media Matters'. So rest assured the information isn't tainted by that horrible source.

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True believers of the world unite ! You have nothing to lose but your mind !

GEEZER

Sunday, December 2, 2007 2:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Geezer, with ALL the f***ups going on regarding the vets coming home from Iraq, you wanna tell me Uncle Sam cares at all? ....so, no conspiracy- I can go with that- but you have to see me a 'they don't give a s**t' in return, K?

I agree that there have been some F-ups, and one is too many, but I'm not sure that there are more than in any bureaucracy. Veteran's benefits are right up there with Social Seurity and income tax refunds as issues which cause letters to congressmen and congressional inquiries to the agency. The Fort Carson issue is a good example, and has resulted in a GAO audit. If there were a disproportionate number, it'd be all over the news.

Don't forget that you're part of "Uncle Sam" too. Your representatives are the ones who set the DOD and VA budgets, and if expenses go up, the VA can't raise prices to cover it, but has to try and get more $ out of Congress. I'd be happy to chip in an extra few hundred a year in taxes for vet's benefits, along with what I contribute to DAV and other organizations.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

GEEZER

Sunday, December 2, 2007 2:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
It was one I had seen earlier, so I looked it up. Sheesh!

Okay.

But, really, does the GAO audit of PTSD mis-diagnosis make you feel any better about the situation? I think we both agree the actions at Ft. Carson were pretty bad, and the audit is gonna be system-wide. When it's complete, they'll publish a full report. Having experienced a routine (i.e. not congressionally requested) GAO audit in the past, I can tell you they miss nothing.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

CHRISISALL

Sunday, December 2, 2007 3:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Your representatives are the ones who set the DOD and VA budgets

*paraphrases Sean Connery from Outland*
My representatives are s**t.

But thanks for a most reasonable response, sir Chrisisall

SIGNYM

Sunday, December 2, 2007 5:35 PM

Quote:
But, really, does the GAO audit of PTSD mis-diagnosis make you feel any better about the situation? I think we both agree the actions at Ft. Carson were pretty bad, and the audit is gonna be system-wide. When it's complete, they'll publish a full report. Having experienced a routine (i.e. not congressionally requested) GAO audit in the past, I can tell you they miss nothing.

I don't know because I haven't had much time and I haven't looked up your link. (Xmas coming and all that)Hope to get to it soon.

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Always look upstream.

RUE

Wednesday, December 12, 2007 2:50 AM

'A Soldier's Officer'

By Dana Priest and Anne Hull
Washington Post Staff Writers
Sunday, December 2, 2007; Page A01

In a nondescript conference room at Walter Reed Army Medical Center, 1st Lt. Elizabeth Whiteside listened last week as an Army prosecutor outlined the criminal case against her in a preliminary hearing. The charges: attempting suicide and endangering the life of another soldier while serving in Iraq.

Her hands trembled as Maj. Stefan Wolfe, the prosecutor, argued that Whiteside, now a psychiatric outpatient at Walter Reed, should be court-martialed. After seven years of exemplary service, the 25-year-old Army reservist faces the possibility of life in prison if she is tried and convicted.

At the hearing, Wolfe, who had already warned Whiteside's lawyer of the risk of using a "psychobabble" defense, pressed a senior psychiatrist at Walter Reed to justify his diagnosis.

"I'm not here to play legal games," Col. George Brandt responded angrily, according to a recording of the hearing. "I am here out of the genuine concern for a human being that's breaking and that is broken. She has a severe and significant illness. Let's treat her as a human being, for Christ's sake!"

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

RUE

Wednesday, December 12, 2007 2:54 AM

The Hotel Aftermath
Inside Mologne House, the Survivors of War Wrestle With Military Bureaucracy and Personal Demons

By Anne Hull and Dana Priest
Washington Post Staff Writers
Monday, February 19, 2007; Page A01

The guests of Mologne House have been blown up, shot, crushed and shaken, and now their convalescence takes place among the chandeliers and wingback chairs of the 200-room hotel on the grounds of Walter Reed Army Medical Center.

Oil paintings hang in the lobby of this strange outpost in the war on terrorism, where combat's urgency has been replaced by a trickling fountain in the garden courtyard. The maimed and the newly legless sit in wheelchairs next to a pond, watching goldfish turn lazily through the water.

But the wounded of Mologne House are still soldiers -- Hooah! -- so their lives are ruled by platoon sergeants. Each morning they must rise at dawn for formation, though many are half-snowed on pain meds and sleeping pills.

In Room 323 the alarm goes off at 5 a.m., but Cpl. Dell McLeod slumbers on. His wife, Annette, gets up and fixes him a bowl of instant oatmeal before going over to the massive figure curled in the bed. An Army counselor taught her that a soldier back from war can wake up swinging, so she approaches from behind.

"Dell," Annette says, tapping her husband. "Dell, get in the shower."

"Dell!" she shouts.

Finally, the yawning hulk sits up in bed. "Okay, baby," he says. An American flag T-shirt is stretched over his chest. He reaches for his dog tags, still the devoted soldier of 19 years, though his life as a warrior has become a paradox. One day he's led on stage at a Toby Keith concert with dozens of other wounded Operation Iraqi Freedom troops from Mologne House, and the next he's sitting in a cluttered cubbyhole at Walter Reed, fighting the Army for every penny of his disability.

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

CAPTAINOLEY

Thursday, December 13, 2007 9:13 PM

What would we do without the Washington Post? I have such respect for those guys. This is an interesting thread. Living in a military area, this has a lot of impact on the people around me. I am definitely going to keep up with this one.

Oley

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, December 13, 2007 9:55 PM

You know, none of this addresses something the VA and military pointedly don't offer, or at least to my knowledge do not.

When a lot of these guys come home, especially from multiple stop-loss extended tours, they have difficulty re-entering civilian life, especially if their civilian life as they knew it has in some way deteriorated in the process (lost the house, wife left, got outsourced, etc) or if some physical disability has occured.

Now, barring physical disability, I have long suspected the reason they don't out-counsel was because, feeling adrift and unable to cope, most of those folks would turn around and re-up, into the only thing that they really understood anymore, rather than deal with a traumatic and difficult adjustment into a world they no longer recognised.

But it's easy to leave the military physically, once discharged, leaving it mentally is far and away something else again, all your responses are wrong, there's no hard and fast structure to cling to, no supervisor to ask for directions, and the conditioning against making your own decisions all conspire against you and left you feeling... lost and adrift in a world you don't really comprehend anymore... remember, I served too, a long time ago, and the adjustment was a right bitch given the death of every current supportive member of the family during that period.

I call this phenom "Decompression Sickness", for lack of a better term, and do a LOT of counselling on it for guys coming back to "The World" and just not assimilating well, as one who did serve, even as a supply grunt and truck driver, there's a common background, and being disabled myself, I can relate to most of the injured ones (I have some pretty specialised knowledge of prosthetics as well, and a TON of local contacts with the docs and engineers who make the very best ones) enough to get through to em.

VA support is pretty sporadic, they'll go all out for one guy, and stall/ignore another with no apparent method to the madness, so it's real helpful for these guys to have something, or someone, solid to lean on when they get back and can't cope so well - not everyone on my mailing list bought it, and not all of em come back in one piece, one Spec4 who was mortified at the thought of being unable to walk... we had a sachs-foot standard heavy bar all ready for him when he got here, and all we had to do was the initial fit (the final socket fitting comes about 3 weeks later) and the look on his face after having been wheeled into the clinic, he got to WALK out, on his own power, was something to treasure.

WE can support the troops, not with some stupid magnetic ribbon on the back of a gas guzzler (which I notice have mostly disappeared) but with information, comfort and counsel, without regard to how we feel about the dimwits cutting the orders - and here's a non-shocker, a lotta THEM feel the same way about the SOBs.

It's pretty shameful how the powers that be have always regarded "used-up" troops, with about the value and meaning of a used kleenex, and how they've never gotten their due since at least the 1860s...

I may not be that sympathetic, but what most of em need is HELP, not sympathy, and comfort and sympathy are different things anyway, leastways in my book.

So if you know, even distantly, any of these guys when they come back, talk to em, BE there for em, cause that adjustment is a helluva lot harder than most civvies think it is.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

CAPTAINOLEY

Friday, December 14, 2007 4:29 PM

Absolutely, do whatever you can to help. I have an employee who was over there last year. He handled it pretty well, but when people bring it up he kind of moves away. He has to go back in teh spring for six months. I am not looking forward to that.

Oley

FREELANCERTEX

Tuesday, December 18, 2007 2:51 AM

Ok, now I'm pissed. *picks up bat*
*goes to breakables room*

*pokes head back in door for a sec* yeah, if I get my leg blown off and they ask me to repay part of my enlistment bonus, they can kiss my ass and go to hell.

__________________________
Have you ever wondered why in a dream you can touch a falling sky?
Or fly to the heavens that watch over you?

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar."

A man is least himself when he speaks in his own person. Give him a mask and he will show you his true self.

You can't take the sky from me...