I feel sad for the Firefly fans here that can't/won't get into Buffy...
POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Thursday, September 27, 2007 00:24
VIEWED: 10453
PAGE 3 of 7
pssst, it's joss 
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"I'm an artist, with an e and a beret."
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I've only given Buffy half a chance, but my take so far has been thusly:
Buffy the movie was brilliant (please note: didn't say it was high quality film-making, said it was brilliant; there's a difference). It was brilliant because you can take a concept that is so far out in left field that nobody would ever think about it, and then spin a yarn off that concept which can keep people entertained for 90-120 minutes, just playing off the uniqueness of the whole thing. A "like"-using, gum-popping vampire hunter turns the whole monster genre on its ear. You take that concept and make the film not take itself too seriously, but at the same time not be a spoof, and you've got something that is just SO different that it has an appeal.
Now, you try to take that and turn it into a series. Not all movies translate that way. Take Stargate SG-1. You've got the movie. All it takes is for somebody to say "Suppose the Stargate goes to lots of places?" and the plot of the series practically writes itself. For Buffy, it's a bit trickier. For one thing, series tend to be a lot more about character growth because there is more time to deal with the gradual changes of people. But once Buffy stops being a vapid valley-chick and starts being a serious slayer, the uniqueness that drew people into the film is gone. Joss himself has said that early on, they just had this sort of "monster-of-the-week" format, which some people, even the kind of people who love FF, aren't going to be WOWed by.
Now, I'm not a huge fan of Buffy, but here is the thing. I'm not SUPPOSED to be a huge fan of Buffy. Part of Joss's brilliance is that he can write smart quality and commercial appeal at the same time. (Not sure what went wrong in that mix with FF. Yes I do. Stupid F*X.) Joss knows who his core audience is, and in the case of Buffy it wasn't me. The show is about female empowerment and finding strength in a strange world; it is like a coming of age story for the suburban american girl. The dialogue is still Joss-great, and they sure tried to lure the boys in with lots of eye-candy, but there really isn't anybody in the show that I relate to, and that is what is needed to draw somebody into shows that are as character-driven as Joss's. Also, given the teenage-female core audience (whether there's more to it or not, that is the core), much of the character development was written to be more romantic-relationship-driven, less about people making brutally hard decisions and learning from them. (Angel, on the other hand, was marketed to me, and even though I'm not as obsessed over it as I am FF, I do like it.)
So, I don't necessarily think that people should be shocked that some Flans don't like Buffy. On the other hand, I hope that there aren't Browncoats out there cutting it down. It's one thing to say you don't like something and point out why, it is another thing to act like NOBODY should like it AT ALL.
All this must have a footnote: I DO NOT understand anybody who likes Buffy but does not like Firefly, for the simple reason that I do not understand ANYBODY who doesn't like Firefly, regardless of other tastes.
"When you can't do somethin' smart, do somethin' right!" -Jayne Cobb quotes Shepherd Book
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Parts of 1-5... 
never sat down and watched a whole season through, because it never really drew me in when it was on TV...
And, Chrisisall... don't shoot me, but for some reason I liked Charmed more than Buffy... 
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start eating your Hat,,,not your Jayne hat,, just a hat. I Could never get into the Buffy.... I have a major SMG phobia, the chic just turns me off and annoys me. But do please enjoy your hat.
"And I think calling him that is an insult to the psychotic lowlife community."
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Quote:
Originally posted by SchoolboysWink:
I've only given Buffy half a chance, but my take so far has been thusly:
Buffy the movie was brilliant (please note: didn't say it was high quality film-making, said it was brilliant; there's a difference). It was brilliant because you can take a concept that is so far out in left field that nobody would ever think about it, and then spin a yarn off that concept which can keep people entertained for 90-120 minutes, just playing off the uniqueness of the whole thing. A "like"-using, gum-popping vampire hunter turns the whole monster genre on its ear. You take that concept and make the film not take itself too seriously, but at the same time not be a spoof, and you've got something that is just SO different that it has an appeal.
Now, you try to take that and turn it into a series. Not all movies translate that way. Take Stargate SG-1. You've got the movie. All it takes is for somebody to say "Suppose the Stargate goes to lots of places?" and the plot of the series practically writes itself. For Buffy, it's a bit trickier. For one thing, series tend to be a lot more about character growth because there is more time to deal with the gradual changes of people. But once Buffy stops being a vapid valley-chick and starts being a serious slayer, the uniqueness that drew people into the film is gone. Joss himself has said that early on, they just had this sort of "monster-of-the-week" format, which some people, even the kind of people who love FF, aren't going to be WOWed by.
Now, I'm not a huge fan of Buffy, but here is the thing. I'm not SUPPOSED to be a huge fan of Buffy. Part of Joss's brilliance is that he can write smart quality and commercial appeal at the same time. (Not sure what went wrong in that mix with FF. Yes I do. Stupid F*X.) Joss knows who his core audience is, and in the case of Buffy it wasn't me. The show is about female empowerment and finding strength in a strange world; it is like a coming of age story for the suburban american girl. The dialogue is still Joss-great, and they sure tried to lure the boys in with lots of eye-candy, but there really isn't anybody in the show that I relate to, and that is what is needed to draw somebody into shows that are as character-driven as Joss's. Also, given the teenage-female core audience (whether there's more to it or not, that is the core), much of the character development was written to be more romantic-relationship-driven, less about people making brutally hard decisions and learning from them. (Angel, on the other hand, was marketed to me, and even though I'm not as obsessed over it as I am FF, I do like it.)
So, I don't necessarily think that people should be shocked that some Flans don't like Buffy. On the other hand, I hope that there aren't Browncoats out there cutting it down. It's one thing to say you don't like something and point out why, it is another thing to act like NOBODY should like it AT ALL.
All this must have a footnote: I DO NOT understand anybody who likes Buffy but does not like Firefly, for the simple reason that I do not understand ANYBODY who doesn't like Firefly, regardless of other tastes.
"When you can't do somethin' smart, do somethin' right!" -Jayne Cobb quotes Shepherd Book
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There, that says it better than I ever could. I just don't see why we SHOULD like it just because it's Joss. Yes he's a good writer, but you know what, there are others just as good who if given the chance (and no execs sticking their nose in) can come up with something just as brilliant. Frankly I'm getting a little annoyed at some who says to me you don't know Joss and his brilliance so I don't expect you to understand these characters (not you in particular Chris, but I've been told that by a few people on here and it's right pissed me off)
So the bottom line is, it doesn't matter if I don't swoon for Buffy AND Angel AND Firefly, because as I see it Joss created 3 shows
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Quote:
Originally posted by charliethebloody:
pssst, it's joss
I knew that...
Every so often I lapse I guess
anyway, edited to avoid further embarrassment.
Heads should roll
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Quote:
Originally posted by wytchcroft:Quote:
But I was sort of feeling the same thing in the beginning, guys! For one, they started with the Train Job (and Joey Buchanan--!!)!!! Not being into westerns or sci-fi, I was more or less looking for the "Jossness" of it. It took me awhile to get there, but I got there.
yeh but you... rule.
That's very sweet of you. Thank you.
And right back at ya!
***********************************************
"They talk about me in the chatty rooms?"--Angel
"I'm 1120 years old. Just give me a frigging beer!"--Anya
"You let him get me. You let him get me."--Connor
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Quote:
Originally posted by SchoolboysWink:
I've only given Buffy half a chance, but my take so far has been thusly:
....much of the character development was written to be more romantic-relationship-driven, less about people making brutally hard decisions and learning from them.
To each his own, I guess. I understand not having anyone to relate to in it (although I've got more Xander and Willow in me than anybody, I've found that there's a little of every character in my personality), but the part about it being "less about making brutally hard decisions and learning from them"? Ummm, what show were you actually watching? Isn't that what growing up is pretty much about? The beginning of that? I, for one, think she made some pretty huge brutally hard decisions, two of them being at the ends of Season 2 and 5. What about the one she would have made (if Anya and D'Hoffryn had not stepped in) at the end of "Selfless" in Season 7?
Not trying to spark a debate or anything, just disagreeing with some (most) of your statements.
I could lie and say I understand not liking the series, but I just can't. I respect your opinions, and I do understand some of your reasonings though. I realize Buffy was about female empowerment and all, and that Angel was more male-oriented, but guess what? I NEVER felt left out. I personally relate a lot to the characters, especially Angel and Wes.
But, to each his (or her) own.
***********************************************
"They talk about me in the chatty rooms?"--Angel
"I'm 1120 years old. Just give me a frigging beer!"--Anya
"You let him get me. You let him get me."--Connor
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There's a LOT of background about me before I get to my point, please be patient:)
I started watching Buffy in very early season 4, although I had seen the season 2 Halloween episode and liked it. I even shipped Buffy/Riley, and I am perfectly willing to admit it. Mid- season I was going through re-runs when I found Angel and decided to give it a chance. Specifically I found the episode "Five by Five."
And all that I can say is, WOW. I had stopped watching Buffy by Season 6, but I stuck through Angel till the very end, even through the fourth season which was just plain horrible and the early fifth season continued the trend. At this time Dark Angel had descended into crap(season 2), and while I was sad to see it go, I was willing to give anything form Angel's creator a chance.
Obviously, since I've been a member here since '03, I liked Firefly:) In fact I believe it to be Mutant Enemy's best creation. BTW, I attended Liberty University(Jerry Falwell's Christian College) and was on the fringes at the school - they don't really know what to do with a libertarian comic book geek of faith there:) Firefly is VERY popular on campus, for those looking to have your minds blown. I introduced several to it, about fifty of us went to Serenity's premier, and we were just one group. Of the people that I introduced Firefly to, I also introduced Angel, but not a single one was at all interested in Buffy after seeing a few Buffy episodes that were important for Angel's backstory.
I guess it's birds of a feather, because all the people that liked Angel also had similar complaints about it that I did, and I refrained from complaining about things until they pointed them out specifically because I wanted an uninfluenced reaction. Then Tim Minear started making shows for Fox on his own, and I loved both of them too(still waiting for The Inside on DVD), and Joss had nothing to do with either of them. Then I went back and starting checking names most associated with my favorite moments/storylines/seasons in Angel, Firefly, and even Buffy.
I came to a heretical realization - Joss Whedon is over-rated.
That's right, I said it. All of my favorite things about his shows seemed to have happened because of someone else(Tim Minear, David Greenwalt, Jane Espenson). With Buffy, for the most part that wasn't really the case. That show he seemed to micromanage more than the others, and ladies, generally that's the one guys don't like. And it isn't because Buffy was such a "strong" woman, it's because she wasn't one.
Joss's version of feminism seems to be that strength comes by being horrible to those that you love, indecisive, arrogant, and generally all the things that women have hated about men for all of recorded history. If you want to know why more people aren't into Buffy, you should try looking at it from their perspective.
I’m never serious. Serious means something bad is about to happen.
98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature
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Jarhead.
Interesting comments and nicely delivered. However thing is Buffy is actually far more popular than Angel and Firefly put together.
What that means I wouldn't care to say.
However, what Buffy may be, as it is now ten years old is; dated. So it maybe harder to enjoy if starting now, more so than the other shows.
Interesting observation about Tim Minear. I generally felt he made the stronger shows for Angel too, but he also made some which I couldn't stand. And I'm not sure but I think he had a more significant involvement in season four. (but I'd have to check on that)
All told though, pound for pound I will always adore Buffy.
Having started Buffy from season One when it first aired I can now look back and rewatch buffy from a sense of nostalgia as well as pure entertainment. For me personally, the enjoyement is still there.
www.cirqus.com
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