'08 Presidential Candidates: Who served & who didn't
POSTED BY: CrevanReaver
UPDATED: Friday, August 25, 2023 18:32
VIEWED: 13523
PAGE 2 of 10
Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
It is prudent to expect the guy fixing your brakes to have automotive experience, your Doctor to have medical experience. It is prudent to expect the head of FEMA to have emergency management experience and the Commander-in-Chief to have military experience.
Yes, but the CiC isn't doing the actual fighting, nor should he be making on the ground decisions. That's what generals and a chain of command are for. The CiC's job is to appoint qualified people and be open-minded enough to listen to dissent from opposing opinions. Bush has done neither.
Now, I bashed Bush's military record repeatedly, but it had nothing to do with him being the CiC. I bashed his war record because he painted Kerry as weak and trashed Kerry's war record; all from the comfort of a cush Nat'l Guard post (which he may or may not have even completed, based on who you believe).
Now, I'm not Godwinning the thread here, do not read this next sentence as a comparison. But having military as a CiC does not always good decision making make. Remember, Hitler had war experience too, look what he did (two-front war that cost Germany its empire, anyone?). On the American side, we elected Grant president, and he didn't do too well either.
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Some bosses are experienced and knowledgable in their fields and some are not. The people under them can tell in a hurry. Which boss would you rather work for?
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"It is prudent to expect the guy fixing your brakes to have automotive experience, your Doctor to have medical experience."
By your reasoning, it's required for the guy fixing your brakes to have been a brake. Or for your doctor to have your particular illness ...
And that's how your simple-minded concepts fall apart.
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Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Some bosses are experienced and knowledgable in their fields and some are not. The people under them can tell in a hurry. Which boss would you rather work for?
The one that gets the job done right and knows how to delegate authority. I've worked for some great bosses through the years that didn't know anything about certain aspects of their various companies, schools, etc., but those bosses all knew where to go when they wanted something done right.
The President cannot possibly be an expert in every field. That's just a fact. But a good leader knows who to turn to when it comes to getting the job done. I want a leader who says, "Hmm, I don't know, but I'll see who's the expert in the field and get that guy on the job right away." Bush, in his presidency, has given us "Heckuva Job Brownie", Gonzales, Ashcroft, Rummy, Bolton, et. al.; through Rummy, fired several good generals and forced out others; and keeps people long past when they should go (Rove).
The CiC doesn't need to know jack about combat (though it would be nice if they experienced it, just to see what real war is like), he (or she) just needs to know how to listen to those that do know about it. When the generals say "this isn't a great idea," a good leader needs to say "why not?", not "you're fired, give me someone that thinks we can do it."
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
By your reasoning, it's required for the guy fixing your brakes to have been a brake. Or for your doctor to have your particular illness ...
And that's how your simple-minded concepts fall apart.
Huh?
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Something for you to ponder:
If you constantly have a "war time president," all there will be is war.
Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
It is prudent to expect the guy fixing your brakes to have automotive experience, your Doctor to have medical experience. It is prudent to expect the head of FEMA to have emergency management experience and the Commander-in-Chief to have military experience.
Where you line of thinking here completely fails is that the guy fixing you brakes actually fixes your brakes, the Doctor is actually practicing medicine and the head of FEMA is actually making structural decisions, etc that seriously effect how FEMA works, etc.
In /reality/, the president does not make structural changes to the military, nor does (s)he make tactical decisions, nor does (s)he actively participate in military operations. (S)he just makes a POLITICAL decision about who to attack. And even then, it's almost entirely based on what other people think (e.g. the actual experts).
In the end, it would actually be prudent to have someone that is actually intelligent in office without military experience than someone who has some military experience but is a complete dumbass.
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John Manchurian Candidate McCain served in the armies of Communist Russia, communist china and Communist North Vietnam, during his VIP treatment during his "POW" hotel vacations during the Vietnam Wars. When he wasn't being gangraped by his US military commanders in the Hanoi Hilton, caught on film for blackmail today.
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BDN
Here is your position, reduced to its bare-bones structure
military-leader : military :: brake-fixer : -----
What fits there is 'brake'.
Or, in English, to know enough about the military to lead it, you have to have been in the military. To know enough about brakes to fix them you have to have been ....
And that's how your simple-minded concepts fall apart.
Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
By your reasoning, it's required for the guy fixing your brakes to have been a brake. Or for your doctor to have your particular illness ...
And that's how your simple-minded concepts fall apart.
Huh?
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I don't see where it matters.
The CinC sets the POLITICAL objectives of the armed forces, and then hands them to the GENERALS to execute.
That's like saying, for example, my units 1st Lt should be an expert rifleman *giggle* which he certainly wasn't, but he WAS an expect tactician.
Command handed down the objectives, him and the captain culled out what our part would be, put a basic framework to it and handed it down to the platoon sarge, who fleshed it out, assigned responsibilities and gave them to the squad leaders.
Who's squads then carried them out.
Nowhere in this at any point was the loot required or needed with a rifle, and he performed HIS part and responsibilites expertly and efficiently, which coming from an E-3 grunt and pointman, is damn high praise for a silverbar.
The CinC has the responsibility of defining the objectives - that's *IT*, period, end of story.
For that, military experience is neither preferable nor required, we have plenty of brass in the pentagon to do the job and I think a lot of our failure rests with them, because it's THEIR job to see it done.
I know it's more complex than that, and there's fault when the advisors and generals tell the CinC it cannot be done and he won't listen, sure...
But it's like demanding that the CEO of sony have built walkmans on the production line as a pre-requisite for what he does, when they have quite literally nothing to do with each other.
I don't care if a CinC *served*, I care that they have good sense, a far more important and useful pre-req, although admittedly a rare one in presidential candidates.
-Frem
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the only reason I care whether or not someone was in the military is if they are a war hawk. Anyone who is hawkish but never served in the military like say oh draft dodgers giuliani and Cheney I have no respect for. If you are a dove or at least only support war for defense or as a completely necessary last resort, then I don't mind if you weren't in the military. But these chicken hawks make me sick to my stomach.
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