Examining Anti-Americanism
POSTED BY: Khyron
UPDATED: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 16:25
VIEWED: 6927
PAGE 3 of 7
Again- I xposted an edit with your reply.
The French have a good reason to be fearful of the USA, as do Europeans in general and a lot of it has to do with the flow of oil. The French were about to sign a big contract with Saddam as soon as Iraq was certified to be in substantial compliance with UN resolutions. Hans Blix was heading in that direction, which is why the USA had to invade before the UN report was finalized. Up until about 2000 the EU had good supplies from the North Sea and Norway. Since those oil fields are declining they will need to find stable imports. Iraq- the largest untapped source of oil- is now out of the question thanks to the USA. The EU will need to use its economic and diplomatic muscle to fight for new supplies from emerging export countries such as Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan and Angola where it has to be noted that BP and Total already have a significant presence. http://europe.theoildrum.com/story/2006/9/22/95855/4850
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Always look upstream.
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I don't think that explains why the common European Joseph on the street, who would be unaware of all of those sort of dealings, would fear America.
"The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter."
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Americans, as internationally insensitive as we are, know where our oil is flowing from even if we can't find it on a map. If "someone" were to threaten to turn off the spigot they would become Enemy #1 in a heartbeat. And Europeans are more politically attuned than we are. It's as I said in the other thread- the USA is an elephant in a playground. One wrong step militarily and a lot of people get hurt. And although we no longer make up more than half of the world's economy we still influence it mightily. If you combine our total power with our total unawareness that there really are different people out there that are not Americans- our unconsiousness of others' needs and viewpoints - it will lead to an underlying sense of unease at best in other nations.
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It's been my experience both politically and personally that there is nothing we hate so much as what we fear.
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Always look upstream.
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1) I bet the average American couldn't name me America's #1 source of crude oil.
2) You over-estimate the political acumen of the average European.
3) A large part of Europe's oil comes from Russia. If we should be fearing someone, it should be Russia, not America.
4) Even if Europe's oil reserves were to depend on America's whims, that means we should be sucking up to America. Instead, students shout anti-American slogans on the streets and politicians run on anti-American platforms.
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Quote:I agree with this.
It's as I said in the other thread- the USA is an elephant in a playground. One wrong step militarily and a lot of people get hurt. And although we no longer make up more than half of the world's economy we still influence it mightily. If you combine our total power with our total unawareness that there really are different people out there that are not Americans- our unconsiousness of others' needs and viewpoints - it will lead to an underlying sense of unease at best in other nations.
"The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter."
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Quote:Americans believe it's in the Middle East somewhere, which is not our major source of crude oil. However, it IS an important source of imports, and any disruption of flow from the region is painful. Americans understand in an basic way that we "need" to control Middle East oil.
1) I bet the average American couldn't name me America's #1 source of crude oil.
Quote:I beg to differ. But this will need polls or statistics to demonstrate one way or another
2) You over-estimate the political acumen of the average European.
Quote:Russians do not represent the same level of power. Due to their straightened circumstances they are not in a position to withold oil from Europe for a long time, altho I know that the supply was shut off due to a contretemps with the Ukraine.
3) A large part of Europe's oil comes from Russia. If we should be fearing someone, it should be Russia, not America.
Quote:European power is ascending. They are not strong enough to "take on" the USA but not so weak as to identify completely with the USA either.
4) Even if Europe's oil reserves were to depend on America's whims, that means we should be sucking up to America. Instead, students shout anti-American slogans on the streets and politicians run on anti-American platforms.
Hence Rue's question about what happens when power changes hands?
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Always look upstream.
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Last post for a while. Need to do some more studying (functional analysis, 
), spent way too much time talking politics and not enough doing maths today.
Quote:I beg to differ. But this will need polls or statistics to demonstrate one way or anotherQuote:2) You over-estimate the political acumen of the average European.
I find it highly unlikely that the average European knows how much oil is flowing into Europe from different oil-producing regions, and how much of an indirect influence the US may or may not have on that oil supply. Heck, I'm interested in the subject and even I don't know the exact details of it (and find data on it surprisingly hard to come by for some reason - I had a pie chart of the different sources a couple of months ago but now I can't find it anymore).
Quote:They have more power over European energy policies than the US does.
Russians do not represent the same level of power.
Quote:Yep. So Europe shouldn't fear the Russians although they have a direct influence on Europe's energy market, but Europe should fear the US because it has an at best indirect influence?
Due to their straightened circumstances they are not in a position to withold oil from Europe for a long time, altho I know that the supply was shut off due to a contretemps with the Ukraine.
Quote:Yeah, I agree with this, but I honestly still don't see where the fear would come from.
European power is ascending. They are not strong enough to "take on" the USA but not so weak as to identify completely with the USA either.
Quote:An interesting question indeed.
Hence Rue's question about what happens when power changes hands?
"The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter."
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Quote:LOL, that was extremely well-put!!!
Originally posted by kaneman:
We know we are the star quarterback in a class full of chess players.
Holy crap, America's whole problem is that sentance in a nutshell!
Well done!
Chrisisall, liking the concise
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Thanks for the new thread, Khyron.
Yesterday was just too nice to argue, so I spent it sitting on the deck with a pitcher of lemonade and the new Harry Dresden book.
Last night and a bit this morning I googled "anti-americanism". I didn't have time to read all 1.35 million hits, but jumped around enough to get a taste. The Wikipedia entry seems to present a relatively balanced overall picture, and seems a good place to start for anyone who wants to dig deeper.
So just rolling up some of the repeated themes:
There is no "Grand Unified Theory" of anti-Americanism. Different people and countries have different reasons.
-Some are dismissive of American culture and perceived lack of intellectual standing. Along with this is the fear that America's "Big Mac culture" will spread to their country.
-Some don't like the success of America's democratic and capitalist systems, since it marginalizes their concepts of socialist rule by an educated elite of scholars and intellectuals.
-Some are disappointed that America does not always live up to its own ideals regarding liberty, law, and equality.
-Anti-globalization supporters see America as the driving force behind globalization, and as out only for America's benefit.
-Some countries resent perceived or actual interference by America in their internal politics and development.
Anti-Americanism is sometimes justified, and sometimes used to hide or enhance other events.
-America has been hasty and careless in it's use of power, and anger at this is justified. It was noted in several places that this anger doesn't seem to be expressed as much against other powers, such as China.
-Anti-Americanism seems to be used as a unifying theme for the EU. It has been noted that to pull countries together, you need a common enemy, and America is both available, and unlikely to actually do anything.
-Islamic fundamentalist groups and governments also use hatred of "The Great Satan" as a unifying theme - revolving around our libertine lifestyle and support of Israel.
-Blaming everything on America makes it possible for some countries and their governments to gloss over their own economic, social, and political failings.
Some other observations.
-People in other countries don't know any more about American than Americans know about their countries.
-People with an anti-American bias see no difference between American liberals and conservatives. They're all lumped together.
-There is a difference between disagreement with American policy, which is largely aimed at the American government, and anti-Americanism, which is also aimed at the American people, their perceived culture, and their social institutions.
As an aside: Based on arguments used in this thread and encountered in my research, I'd bet that some of the folks here have read a good bit of Noam Chomsky.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:Quote:
Originally posted by fredgiblet:
I read a book (I think it was 'Warday') about a post-nuclear war U.S. where the nukes were largely contained to the U.S. and the Soviet Union. The author was of the opinion that the only countries that would stand by us in our hour of need would be Britain and Japan and the rest would ignore us or try to screw with us.
I would ask the author why he left Israel, Canada, Australia, and The US virgin islands off that list.....
Without the U.S. supporting it Israel would probably have WAY too many of their own problems to worry about us. I don't think Canada likes us as much as some people think. Australia and the Virgins I don't know why, but it was a few years back when I read the book so there might have been more.
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Geezer, re Noam Chomsky. Sigh, if you're referring to me, it is my misfortune to keep reinventing the wheel. I don't know if that means I'm smarter or stupider than him, but my arguments are all my own.
There are a lot of flavors of anti-Americanism, but let's look at your list and some of the other wikipedia comments and see if we can find some commonalities:
Quote:Everything in this list revolves around fear: fear of loss of cultural identity, economic viability, or sovereignty; fear of interference with internal processes. The small Haitian, French or Japanese farmer might not be able to compete with (American-subsidized) agribusiness, the religion-dominated peasant farming culture of the Middle East (very much like our Middle Ages) may fall to science and commercialism, the land-reform and labor movements of Central and South America and Asia were squashed by American military intervention and internal interference. Because America has a long history of global interference, a current military footprint all over the world and retains its position as the holder of world currency, everyone sees the USA as the driver of unwelcome changes. They fear these changes and their inability to deflect them.
Some are dismissive of American culture and perceived lack of intellectual standing. Along with this is the fear that America's "Big Mac culture" will spread to their country.
Some don't like the success of America's democratic and capitalist systems, since it marginalizes their concepts of socialist rule by an educated elite of scholars and intellectuals.
Anti-globalization supporters see America as the driving force behind globalization, and as out only for America's benefit.
Some countries resent perceived or actual interference by America in their internal politics and development.
America has been hasty and careless in it's use of power, and anger at this is justified. It was noted in several places that this anger doesn't seem to be expressed as much against other powers, such as China.
Quote:With some other nations it's possible to say: Well, it's a tyranny, this doesn't reflect what the people want. But the United States is a democracy, as Bush reminds everyone at every opportunity. I think previous to the Iraq invasion most people distinguished between our government and people, but the high approval rating of George Bush and his invasion of Iraq made it obvious that Americans cannot be counted on to prevent government from egregious acts. In fact, I think that many foreigners looked on our flag-waving and hurrahing with a certain amount of horror.
People in other countries don't know any more about American than Americans know about their countries.
People with an anti-American bias see no difference between American liberals and conservatives. They're all lumped together.
There is a difference between disagreement with American policy, which is largely aimed at the American government, and anti-Americanism, which is also aimed at the American people, their perceived culture, and their social institutions.
Some are disappointed that America does not always live up to its own ideals regarding liberty, law, and equality.
Quote:There is no mystery nor great exception here. The other powers have little foreign presence. Where they intrude or have intruded in an unwelcome way, they are resented. For example, China has purchased a number of coal mines in Africa and is bleeding its employees dry. As a result, China is resented. They- and the other powers- don't get a "pass" on bad behavior, they're just not as omnipresent as we are.
It was noted in several places that this anger doesn't seem to be expressed as much against other powers, such as China.
Using the USA as a foil for internal politics only works because we're a relevant target. While it's possible to create a imminent threat out of nothing (after all, we did it with Saddam) it's hard to keep the justification alive very long. It would be difficult for the Arabs to
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