The Definition of Hyprocracy
POSTED BY: Redlava
UPDATED: Sunday, December 31, 2006 14:57
VIEWED: 5835
PAGE 6 of 7
Wow. Lots of points got scrambled in this thread!
So, in no particular order:
Citizen- not being a native USAer you missed all the fun when Marilyn Manson got blamed for Columbine: www.johnnyleeclary.com/manson.htm
Finn- As Citizen pointed out, the young "heavy gamers" are not necessarily playing GTA. I know some kids who'll play Jak and Daxter all day, every day, if you let them. Also, "marketing" to a group (say, young kids) does not necessarily mean that kids are the main buyers or even the main users. All that it means is that adverts for the game appear in younger children's time slots and venues: with cartoons, in Disney magazines, etc.
Also Finn, you seem to be avoiding the point of the thread, which has to do with hypocracy. One thing about GTA... as violent as it is there is nothing hypocrtical about it. Both the game content and the game development speak the same language: make money by whatever means possible. And altho I detest violence as entertainment, something about Left Behind's creators and backers creeps me out. I've known people... "religious" people... who have killed others without EVER recognizing what they did. Their heads are full of snakes twisting together. They're quite insane. AFA the Left Behind game is concerned, the website says: Conduct physical & spiritual warfare : using the power of prayer to strengthen your troops in combat and wield modern military weaponry throughout the game world. ... Command your forces through intense battles across a breathtaking, authentic depiction of New York City... Control more than 30 units types - from Prayer Warrior and Hellraiser to Spies, Special Forces and Battle Tanks! ... Play multiplayer games as Tribulation Force or the AntiChrist's Global Community Peacekeepers with up to eight players via LAN or over the internet!
Finn, you said you couldn't find any connection between the game and the religious right. Apparently you haven't gone to the game website or done the most cursory fact-checking.
Also, I read Cartoon's post, but when I looked at it again later it appeared to have been edited. A critical phrase was deleted about killing non-believers. Cartoon likes to play the victim whinge about how unfair everyone is whenever Xtians are treated like (gasp!) any other religion.
www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=25739
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Quote:Finn's standard operating procedure, bury any pertinent points with personal attacks against those making them.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Wow. Lots of points got scrambled in this thread!
Quote:
Citizen- not being a native USAer you missed all the fun when Marilyn Manson got blamed for Columbine: www.johnnyleeclary.com/manson.htm did, but I didn't miss Columbine being blamed on Doom. Maybe music is blamed more than I thought, but it certainly takes a back seat to the game scapegoat.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:According to NPD, many children are heavy video game players.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Finn- As Citizen pointed out, the young "heavy gamers" are not necessarily playing GTA. I know some kids who'll play Jak and Daxter all day, every day, if you let them. Also, "marketing" to a group (say, young kids) does not necessarily mean that kids are the main buyers or even the main users. All that it means is that adverts for the game appear in younger children's time slots and venues: with cartoons, in Disney magazines, etc.
Also Finn, you seem to be avoiding the point of the thread, which has to do with hypocracy. ...
http://www.npd.com/press/releases/press_060919a.html
According to the USFTC, 70% of the studied games rated M were marketed to children under 17, and two thirds of unaccompanied children between the ages of 13 and 16 were able to purchase video games rated M. (Which presumably means they did purchase video games rated M, which presumably means many children are playing video games rated M)
http://www.ftc.gov/reports/violence/vioreport.pdf
GTA is rated M. (The newest version has been re-rated to Adult Only, which is generally successful in protecting it from children if only because most stores won’t carry it. I’ve only played the 2001 version, which I consider to be way too violent for children, and this game continues to be marketed to and accessible to children and continues to be rated M, to may knowledge.)
http://ps2.ign.com/articles/635/635198p1.html
You want to tell me that it’s okay to market the game to children because children might not be buying it? I would say fat chance of that, but I suppose this is an extreme case of the ‘what we don’t know won’t hurt us’ philosophy. Nonetheless I continue to condemn, whether you will or not, the marketing of violent video games to children, especially when they are so easily obtainable by children. While you and I have our differences, I’m surprised to see this is one of them.
As for the whole hypocritical thing and the “Christian Right,” as I said, I’ve yet to see anything in this thread connecting the “Christian Right” to this Left-behind video game. Now granted I don’t know that much about this game, but I did read the original post as well as the two cited articles used to support it. I found nothing to identify anything called the “Christian Right” advocating this game and how that is hypocritical. Exactly how the author of this thread came to that conclusion, I don’t know.
What is the “Christian Right?” People often throw around that phrase with about as much context as the way the “international Jew” was once tossed around in the early part of the twentieth century. So when someone tells me the “Christian Right” did this or thinks that, most of the time, it’s just a broad generalization. In reality, Christians are a very diverse group with many different widely varying opinions on a huge volume of subjects. So it’s real easy to condemn Christians as “hypocrites,” since all you need to do is find one group of Christians who thinks one thing and compare them to another group of Christians who thinks the opposite, and instead of identifying two different groups, you just label them all the “Christian Right.” So as far as I’m concerned the phrase “Christian Right” is a meaningless term without contextual definition.
What if I were to say the “Islamic Right” are terrorists, making reference to one of many acts of terrorism carried out by fundamentalist Muslims? Do you suppose it is possible that there are, in fact, many Muslims who could be characterized as Islamic and Right-wing who are not terrorists? I’m pretty sure that is the case. Before I would listen to someone throwing around that line I would want them to identify what the “Islamic Right” is. Al Qaeda? Sure. They’re terrorists. Your town’s local mosque? Not so much. Is there some reason why I shouldn’t apply the same standard to Christians? I can’t think of any.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius
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Quote:Whoopsy! The reason folks here have cause to call the "Christians" who advocate a game like this hypocrites is because the group of Christians they're being compared to includes Jesus Christ himself. No one here is calling Christians hypocrites because the many different sects disagree about this or that. We call them hypocrites when they don't follow the most basic beliefs of the Guy their religion is founded on.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
So it’s real easy to condemn Christians as “hypocrites,” since all you need to do is find one group of Christians who thinks one thing and compare them to another group of Christians who thinks the opposite, and instead of identifying two different groups, you just label them all the “Christian Right.”
Several non-hypocritical (i.e.: genuinely) Christian oppinions of this effed-up game are expressed in the articles about the game. No one here has a problem with Christians that denounce the game.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Quote:
No, I was just clarifying a point. I think that marketing cigarettes, alcohol, fast food, and sex/ violence to children is deplorable, even if they're (theoretically) not allowed to purchase the product. The makers know full well that kids will sneak in to see R movies, that they'll buy cigarettes, M games, and alcohol, and that even if they don't someone will buy it for them. As I said, just a clarification that "marketing to" does not necessarily mean "sales to" or "use by". Two different terms.
You want to tell me that it’s okay to market the game to children because children might not be buying it?
Quote:The makers of the game self-identify as Xtians. The CEO and cofounder Mr. Lyndon "has also served many ministries and Christian publishers, including the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, Campus Crusade for Christ", Robyn Lyndon, the CFO and cofounder spent "more than 30 years of administration experience working in various roles for consumer marketing and ministry organizations (and was)... Finance Administrator for South Shores Church , a multi-million dollar ministry...she is an Inductive Bible Study teacher for Precept Ministries' curriculum and mother of five". www.leftbehindgames.com/pages/management.htm
As for the whole hypocritical thing and the “Christian Right,” as I said, I’ve yet to see anything in this thread connecting the “Christian Right” to this Left-behind video game. Now granted I don’t know that much about this game, but I did read the original post as well as the two cited articles used to support it. I found nothing to identify anything called the “Christian Right” advocating this game and how that is hypocritical. Exactly how the author of this thread came to that conclusion, I don’t know.
The Left Behind website links to ministries and other Xtian-based websites. www.assistnews.net/Stories/s06120064.htm
By self-description
Quote:This game appears to be fairly well embedded within evangelical Xtianity. EDIT: But my problem with the game makers is not that they disagree with some other nominal Xtian group, or even that they seem to be inconsistent to the teachings of Jesus (who they profess to believe in) but that they seem to be INTERNALLY inconsistent. People who twist their brains into pretzels scare me.
The mission of Left Behind Games is to become the world’s leading independent developer and publisher of quality interactive entertainment products that perpetuate positive values and appeal to mainstream and faith-based audiences...Controversial as it has been, The Passion of the Christ has generated more than $500 million since it's release. Experts are expecting it to become one of the top ten financially successful movies of all-time. To date, not one high-quality video game has been marketed to this same audience. It is management’s belief that LEFT BEHIND will be a catalyst for a new genre of video game entertainment; known, as stated by the Wall Street Journal, as "God Games".
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Quote:So basically this whole “Christians are hypocritical” stuff is a religious argument based on a religious text. Not actually, any kind of unbiased analysis. And here’s the biggest gem, some of the people making these accusations about Christians based on, according to you, the religious teachings of Jesus, are people who don’t even accept the religious teachings of Jesus. Now that actually sounds like it could be hypocritical, by definition.
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Whoopsy! The reason folks here have cause to call the "Christians" who advocate a game like this hypocrites is because the group of Christians they're being compared to includes Jesus Christ himself. No one here is calling Christians hypocrites because the many different sects disagree about this or that. We call them hypocrites when they don't follow the most basic beliefs of the Guy their religion is founded on.
Several non-hypocritical Christian oppinions of this effed-up game are expressed in the articles about the game.
While I do agree with you that a literal interpretation of Jesus’ teachings would seem to guide those who follow such teachings to a conclusion of nonviolence, how does this necessarily make people who support violence video games hypocrites? Jesus never said, to turn the other “virtual” cheek? So if a Christian who adheres to the nonviolence of Jesus (which I admit is a straightforward interpretation), plays a violent video game but is mature enough to recognize that the game is purely an entertainment vehicle, how is that a violation of Jesus’ teachings? Now to allow children, who may be impressionable enough to translate depicted fictional violence from an entertainment venue to a real world scenario, to play these games that could be become a violation of Jesus’ nonviolent teachings.
So whether I look at it from a purely secular point of view or a Christian perspective focusing on Jesus’ nonviolence, I still don’t find any reason to necessarily make broad generalization about Christians being hypocrites.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:Finn, this is just silly. Do I have to be a pedophile to have a credible opinion about pedophilia?
So basically this whole “Christians are hypocritical” stuff is a religious argument based on a religious text. Not actually, any kind of unbiased analysis. And here’s the biggest gem, some of the people making these accusations about Christians based on, according to you, the religious teachings of Jesus, are people who don’t even accept the religious teachings of Jesus. Now that actually sounds like it could be hypocritical, by definition.
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Quote:I’m not going to defend this Lyndon dude. I don’t think he’s interested in anything that isn’t going into his bank account.
Originally posted by SignyM:
The makers of the game self-identify as Xtians. The CEO and cofounder Mr. Lyndon "has also served many ministries and Christian publishers, including the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, Campus Crusade for Christ", Robyn Lyndon, the CFO and cofounder spent "more than 30 years of administration experience working in various roles for consumer marketing and ministry organizations (and was)... Finance Administrator for South Shores Church , a multi-million dollar ministry...she is an Inductive Bible Study teacher for Precept Ministries' curriculum and mother of five".
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:No, but then you aren’t presumably judging pedophiles on what they believe, but rather what they do.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Finn, this is just silly. Do I have to be a pedophile to have a credible opinion about pedophilia?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Hypocracy is the contradiction between doing one thing and saying another. The group that made the game believes in.. or says they believe in... instilling "positive values". So either they feel that killing non-believers is a positive value or they're in denial about what their game is teaching. Either way, it's a problem. And it's creepy.
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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