What are your thoughts on god?
POSTED BY: christhecynic
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 29, 2024 07:06
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In the thread Evolution Sucks! over in Real World Event Discussions a lot has come up about god. Many people there are atheists, some (such as myself) are not. We have all agreed that Evolution does not suck, at least not in the way the thread starter believes, and blind faith should not be used in place of science.
I honestly believe that god has no place in discussion of Evolution, or science in general, because whether you are studying the work of god or you are not it hardly effects how you study it.
As such that thread isn't the place to ask this question: What do you all believe with respect to god? (Or gods, I don't want someone to stay out of this just because I use singular instead of plural.)
Or anything along the lines of god. Don't let religion get into it where it can be avoided, I'm talking about your personal beliefs if those beliefs are that a certain religion is right or wrong feel free to say it of course, but don't get on a tangent. (Especially If I don't, if I can show that restraint you can too.)
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I do believe in god, I believe for reasons I don't fully understand, I just realized one day that I do believe. (No idea when I started to believe, I just realized one day that I already did.) In spite of that I think agnostics have the most logical approach, with a lack of proof it makes the most sense to keep an open mind.
As for what kind of god I believe in, my understanding of physics, which is limited, says that the only place for god is at a quantum level, the phenomena that we currently believe to be based solely on probability there could have an underlying but undiscovered pattern to them, and that would be the only place left for god.
I do not believe that god would break the laws of physics because if the assumption that god created the universe is correct it means that god created the laws of physics, why would anything create rules just to break them? Seems far too stupid for any god worthy of respect to me.
Of course the quantum level is so damn small, and in spite of having so much based on probability it turns out the way the classical laws predict on a macro scale anyway. But everything is on such a delicate balance, all it takes is one little thing to change everything, so it seems to me like with sufficient understanding manipulating quantum probability would be able to result in, say, someone having a specific vision of god saying specific things.
As for the personality of god, and the afterlife, it's all blind faith here. I've got no evidence, just belief. Of course I don't have any evidence for the rest either, but I feel I should point this out again here.
I don't think god is a vengeful ass who wants everyone that does not believe in the perfectly correct version of him to go to hell. (I also don't think god is male, but that hardly matters at all.) I don't think god would punish anyone, whether they believe in god or not, for things they honestly believe in.
If that (hellfire for the heathens) is what god is like I will gladly go to hell knowing that I had the moral high ground and god didn't. I will also almost immediately beg forgiveness for that action and apologize repeatedly for all of time (I don't think I could stand up to torture.)
I don't think there is a hell at all, but that is sort of to the side of god.
I don't think god is nasty at all, I mean all religions I know of say be nice to others (of course most of them also have a "kill the bastards" clause too, so much inconsistency.) But I also don't think god is all for total and absolute control of people's mind, which is what would probably be required to make people get along.
Leaves a kind of screwed up situation really. Even if god is all powerful no decent being (my definition of decent, hardly a universal constant) would actually use absolute power.
I just noticed how much I say about my beliefs is in the form, "I don't," but I think a lot of the perceptions of god make that kind of phrasing necessary.
I do think god
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I believe God is a mental construct, but as real as you or me.
One school of thought in the philosophy of mind suggests that a person, a 'soul', is no more or less than the complex pattern of information representing the concept of 'self' maintained by the human brain. You are indeed more than just the flesh and bones attached to the brain, more than even the brain itself. You are the unique pattern of information stored in your brain that represents the holistic view of all your memories and thoughts.
If you can accept that (and granted, many can't or won't), it's a small step to realize that God can exist side by side with the concept of self - in the human mind. In as much as the details of God's nature are understood and shared with others, God can exist outside the mind of any individual human. In the minds of millions of believers, God can be a powerful force who shapes history and guides followers.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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I make it short: I believe in destiny, but not in god and religion.
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Well, I am no believer in God. I believe when we die, we die, thats it, gone for ever. That is what most who are religious have a hard time with, they have to believe that when you die, you go somewhere after. Fear of REALLY dieing is where the god idea comes from in my opinion. But we all have our opinions/beliefs I guess.
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This is a very difficult question.
I'll say one thing first. I know now that I and humankind in general know very little about the universe. Everytime I read a new book on theology, I find many equally compelling arguments both for and against the concept of a God. Human beliefs have changed so much, even within individual religions, that I can't bring myself to trust any given version. I am not like Mal who appears to have lost faith because of something that didn't happen the way it was supposed to, but more like The Operative, who realized that his perfect world was not there. One reason I loved Serenity with such a passion was the dichotomy of belief emphasized so often.
Having been raised to follow arguments to their logical conclusion, I continue to try and find where the various relgious paths converge and discover why there is such variation. On such an important issue, I can't bring myself to have faith, maybe because I feel like I'm closing the doors to all the various paths and I might be shutting out the answer then. Then again, there might not be an answer, which is why humans have never agreed on a particular religion. Like Mal, I am probably lost in the woods, but also like him, it might be the only place I can see a clear path.
The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule. – H.L. Mencken
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Quote:
Originally posted by JubelLate:
This is a very difficult question.
I agree with you there.
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I am not like Mal who appears to have lost faith because of something that didn't happen the way it was supposed to, but more like The Operative, who realized that his perfect world was not there.
I don't believe in a perfect world either, the mere idea of it scares me, at least most people's idea of it. The idea that there is a place without suffering, without conflict, without doubt. It's just so ... wrong.
If you don't suffer how can you live? How can you appreicate the good if there is no bad? How can you care about what you have in a place without loss? How can you believe when doubt is gone?
Everything we are as human beings comes from the contrast in life, only the poor can truely appreciate being rich, only those who have loved, and lost, and then loved again can understand the value of that love.
What most people see as perfect, a world where no one suffers, where everyone is happy all the time, where nothing bad ever happens, scares me.
It is what USMC says is the fear that brings about religion, the fear of truely dying. It is a place where whether or not you have a pulse you can never be alive.
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Having been raised to follow arguments to their logical conclusion, I continue to try and find where the various relgious paths converge and discover why there is such variation.
This is really the only sensible way to go about it. (I'm not incredibly sensible.)
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On such an important issue, I can't bring myself to have faith, maybe because I feel like I'm closing the doors to all the various paths and I might be shutting out the answer then.
Even back when I was an atheist and when I was the more rational agnostic (I've gone through all the positions) I thought that faith was vital to everything. Science is based on faith, in another thread I brought this up in SIGNYM listed three fundamental leaps of faith in science:
a) There is an objective universe and we are part of it.
b) We come to know that universe through our senses.
c) Effect follows cause.
c is the one that I see as most important, a I think isn't necessary, but the point remains, you need faith.
The problem I think you have with is when people let faith stand in the way of accepting new evidence. Closing the doors to paths.
I agree that would be a bad idea, and if the way you avoid it is to avoid faith in any postion I think that is the right thing for you to do.
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Then again, there might not be an answer, which is why humans have never agreed on a particular religion. Like Mal, I am probably lost in the woods, but also like him, it might be the only place I can see a clear path.
I can not imagine a better place to be.
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To quasi-quote a character from the TV show Bones: "I believe that organized religion is a sham, a con game designed to fleece the flock and exert social control through the threat of eternal damnation. But that doesn't mean God doesn't love me."
Myself, I'm a Pagan, a New Norse Heathen to be precise. Don't bother looking it up; I'm a church of one right now. Which is the lovely thing about Paganism. No "One size fits all" attitudes here.
Yep, we Pagans have a God for everything: Thunder, Music, Machines, War, Harvests -- the only one we don't have is a God of Premature Ejaculation. (But I understand one's coming quickly. Rim Shot!)
But you are speaking of "God", singular. Well, like the Hindus, I don't have a problem reconciling Mono-and-Poly theisms. There's "God", and there's "The Gods", and there's no real contradiction between them. One set up the playing field, and the others, knowingly or unknowingly, placed the pieces on the board. There's a lovely bit in a movie whose name escapes me; two blue-skinned Hindu Gods at the controls of a jumbo jet. Says the first: "Do you know how to fly this thing?" Replies the second: "No. Thank God we're Gods."
Simply put, God is just too important a concept to take seriously.
"I'm sorry my karma ran over your dogma." -- George R.R. Martin
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I guess I'm still working on this (it's a belief-system-in-progress), but I do not believe in a theistic god. Meaning that I don't believe in a distinct conscious entity sitting on a throne in heaven somewhere, watching us and causing bad stuff to happen to those He/She/we don't like. That may have been a useful image for our tribal ancestors, and perhaps good as a begining image for children today, but I find it too limiting.
I have no doubt that God exists, but I see God as the "ground of all being", as the source of our life and capacity to be human. And, not trying to sound too corny, but "God is love.".
I'm not saying that I am right and everyone must believe as I do. And I am sure that there are some people, even here, who will say that my "faith" is too far outside the pale to qualify as belief. So be it.
MAL "You only gotta scare him."
JAYNE "Pain is scary..."
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Quote:
Originally posted by RocketJock:
But you are speaking of "God", singular.
That's an oops I'll fix as soon as I finish this reply.
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Well, like the Hindus, I don't have a problem reconciling Mono-and-Poly theisms.
Yeah, their view seems contradictory at first, but it isn't.
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Simply put, God is just too important a concept to take seriously.
God that's a great quote.
(the amount I use "god" as an amplifying word is annoying in this kind of topic.)
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"I tore these out of your symbol and they turned into paper."
V.
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